This week, David Avallone (https://www.patreon.com/cw/DavidAvallone) joins host Emily J. Edwards to discuss pulp fiction, literary adaptations, and the Coen Brothers’ early hit, MILLER’S CROSSING. A faithful (but perhaps legally loose) adaptation of Dashiell Hammett’s THE GLASS KEY, MILLER’S CROSSING is an audacious crime novel about the love of family– if the only family you’re talking about is organized. MILLER’S CROSSING stars Gabriel Byrne, Albert Finney, Marcia Gay Harden, and John Tuturro.
Find David Avallone online:
- https://www.patreon.com/cw/DavidAvallone
- https://www.davidavallonefreelance.com/Home.html
- https://bsky.app/profile/davallone.bsky.social
Transcript:
Emily Edwards (00:00.792)
Greetings, gumshoes, and welcome to another episode of Silver Screen Sleuths the podcast where I talk to authors and writers all about mystery movies and television shows. With me today is a Jack of all trades who I have adored for many, many, many years. David Avallone how the hell are you?
David Avallone (00:18.245)
I’m good. I’m hanging in there, Emily. How are you doing?
Emily Edwards (00:21.464)
Pretty good. You know, we are we are chatting, though this is going to be airing later, we’re chatting right after the California primary. And there’s nothing like watching a movie about corrupt politicians and mafiosos right around the time of a big election. Yeah. You know. so I wanted to chat with you for this show, mostly because I enjoy chatting with you always.
David Avallone (00:36.701)
Sure. Sure.
Emily Edwards (00:48.044)
But you have a long and storied history with sort of pulp fiction, mystery novels, crime fiction, and things of that nature. Can you give us a little bit of an overview of what you do and and why you like the genres you write so much?
David Avallone (00:58.641)
Sure.
David Avallone (01:04.123)
Well, you know, it I I of course have to mention my dad. I was raised by a pulp fiction novelist who wrote between nineteen fifty three and about nineteen eighty five, eighty six. I think he wrote his last book in eighty six or eighty seven, which was not published. by the way, I have to do the commercial as an aside. His I am I do offer his out of print books on Amazon as Amazon Kindle ebooks. and we’re gonna have a n a new one, a
Emily Edwards (01:30.402)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:34.001)
excuse me, never before published Ed Noon mystery called The Moon Maiden will be coming up as soon as I can get a cover back from the great Robert Hack. but for me I possibly because my dad was a writer, I always kind of underplayed or I thought of myself as a writer second and as a filmmaker first, because that’s what I was doing.
Emily Edwards (01:59.874)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (02:01.433)
and you know, looking back, that tactically may have been a mistake. It’s hard to say. But I’ve a trip to the IMDB will reveal a long, weird and winding career leading to this moment. But around two around twenty fourteen and up until twenty fourteen I done a little T V writing, a little movie writing. my first professional gig was actually short stories for a role playing game.
for the Star Wars role playing game, believe it or not, writing about Mandalorians, as it turns out. And I was thirty years ahead of my time. And but in yeah. In in twenty fourteen, a colleague read a script of mine and said, Well I can’t help you get this made as a movie, but I can introduce you to some comic book editors and tell them that you can write and
Emily Edwards (02:32.994)
Wow.
Emily Edwards (02:41.742)
You’ve laid the foundation is what
David Avallone (02:57.957)
I got introduced to the editor in chief of Dynamite. which is Dynamite’s a fascinating comic book publisher. the the the man in charge, Nick Berucci, has a kind of genius for moribund IP. IP that other people have left lying around and not done anything with. And that does take a kind of geni his the first comics they ever published about twenty, twenty five years ago.
Emily Edwards (03:03.438)
Mm.
Emily Edwards (03:16.469)
Ha ha.
Emily Edwards (03:20.834)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (03:27.023)
were Ash versus the Evil Dead. No one was doing anything with that franchise at the time. And my boss Nick Perucci wanted to see Ash versus the Evil Dead comic books, so he made them. And you know, we picked up they picked up the Red Sonya license, the Vampirella license, you know, comic book characters that no one was doing anything with at that time that had fallen into disrepute and now they’re big sellers. And I’ve written the first comic I actually wrote for them was a Vampirella comic.
Emily Edwards (03:30.86)
Wow. That’s crazy.
Emily Edwards (03:44.76)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (03:49.187)
Yeah.
David Avallone (03:56.695)
but they also at the time, and I think this influenced my hiring, because of my background with my dad in pulp fiction, they also had Doc Savage and the Shadow, literal pulp characters. And I ended up writing one Doc Savage series and one Shadow series. And and with an irony that I I honestly can say I saw it saw coming from outer space,
Emily Edwards (03:56.92)
That’s so amazing.
Emily Edwards (04:07.767)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (04:23.195)
When I was working on being a screenwriter and meanwhile making films, I couldn’t get arrested in real screenwriter jobs. I couldn’t get hired by a movie studio. Being a published comic book writer helped my profile in Hollywood enormously, which is hilarious. thirty years making independent films? Fuck you, you don’t know anything about movies. but you’ve been published somewhere.
Emily Edwards (04:30.913)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (04:44.179)
Ha ha ha.
David Avallone (04:50.705)
By the publisher of Moribund franchise material. You must be good. it’s every Hollywood executive needs someone to have signed off on you before they did. they can never be the one to go like Yeah, no, no one’s ever done anything with this guy, but he’s great. So my being published helped me helped me get more opportunities. and ultimately
Emily Edwards (04:51.115)
Yeah, ooh Exactly.
Emily Edwards (05:01.515)
That’s very true.
Emily Edwards (05:06.061)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (05:09.441)
Yeah, no, no.
Emily Edwards (05:15.317)
Move along and the Yeah.
David Avallone (05:20.889)
including writing short stories again in and I wrote for the Planet of the Apes role playing game in the last couple of years, which is good because I had a lot of thoughts. I had a lot of thoughts about Planet of the Apes. Well, you know, it it is a funny thing that sometimes when you get on IP, like Red Sonia and Vampirella are great characters. I love them.
Emily Edwards (05:32.907)
Yeah. You’re like, I had to work through some stuff that was in my brain for the last forty years.
David Avallone (05:47.547)
But I hadn’t spent thirty years going, I have things to say about Vampirella. I No, I I don’t. She’s great. I love her. There are small things that I have to say about her that why I love her. Vampirella’s from another planet. Did you know that? I am not I am not a fan of most vampire material, for reasons that are not j germane to this podcast, but but I love Vampirella cause all the dumb
Emily Edwards (05:48.385)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (06:01.281)
Yeah, I did.
Emily Edwards (06:06.006)
Yeah.
David Avallone (06:15.737)
spooky European shit is gone and she’s just I’m an alien that drinks blood. Like there’s there’s no no crosses, no wolf spane, no garlic, none of that nonsense. I love that she’s Yeah. You don’t have to Nope, there’s no religious undertone. She’s just an alien that eats people. and she’s delightful. Anyway, all that to say that a few years ago, last year
Emily Edwards (06:23.605)
There’s no lore. Yeah. No Roman Catholicism versus Protestantism coming in here.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (06:37.857)
Feeds off blood.
David Avallone (06:44.475)
I wrote a short story for a a fairly obscure collection. but the editor, Josh Pachter is a great guy and he’s very active about getting it out there. And that short story was selected for Otto Penzler’s very prestigious best mystery stories of the year book. And then and I’m told this one was selected by John Grisham, who was the editor of that particular volume, which was which felt nice, you know.
Emily Edwards (06:54.561)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (07:04.447)
I know.
Emily Edwards (07:12.663)
We’ll look yeah, we’ll look at you.
David Avallone (07:14.949)
And the part the the part of me that I’ve been writing you know, I’m a writer that’s been writing for, you know, close to fifty years, if you go back to stuff I wrote in my childhood. but I felt a little I felt some kind of way about, you know, not wanting to say out loud, it’s my first mystery story. because that seems a little obnoxious. But the difference is I’m not a twenty five year old writing my first mystery story.
Emily Edwards (07:43.666)
That’s very true. You have a long history of figuring out how to do this writing thing. Yeah.
David Avallone (07:44.707)
I was a I was a fifty n Yeah. I was a fifty nine year old writer who had written all sorts of other things, but not specifically a mystery short story. And if you read the short story, I think one of the reasons it got selected is that it’s barely a mystery story. It’s b it’s a it’s a it’s a crime story by its fingernails. And I think that the reason this is a a thing that I think is true about anthologies.
Is that if you think about an anthology and the genre that the anthology is in, there are a certain kind of story they’re going to get a thousand that are very similar. Even the great ones are still going to be about a detective trying to solve a crime. Mine was about a guy whose movie mine was three autobiographical anecdotes in a trench coat. Literally. thank you.
Emily Edwards (08:19.117)
Mm.
Emily Edwards (08:24.363)
Yes, very much so. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (08:30.219)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (08:39.039)
I know, I I bought it and I read it because I was so happy that you you’d gotten included that I was like, I have to read this. It’s a good story.
David Avallone (08:44.081)
Thank you. Well, I mean, if you’ve read the if you’ve read the story, you know that’s like two different women I dated before I moved to California. Actually, one woman I dated before I moved to California while I was working in a furniture factory. Like there’s very lit it’s very nail on the head. And one woman that I had an affair with while I was making a movie in the middle of the desert in Arizona. And so it takes those elements
Emily Edwards (08:55.181)
huh.
Emily Edwards (08:59.818)
Right.
Emily Edwards (09:10.005)
Yeah. And
David Avallone (09:10.713)
And I add in that maybe she murdered someone ten years ago and that’s it. There’s you know, there’s no it’s but it’s but it my point being that I think I probably got included not to, you know, not to downplay my own, you know, whether or not it’s a a good story, but I also think it helps that it you know, when you start reading it, it’s just an atmospheric romance. And then
Emily Edwards (09:16.397)
Bygons.
Emily Edwards (09:28.779)
No, toot your own horn, man.
Emily Edwards (09:38.369)
Yeah, you have no cigarette smoking detective in a trench coat underneath a lamplight and
David Avallone (09:40.399)
Yeah. It’s not a guy it does not open with a guy in an office and a woman walks in and says, I’m in trouble. Like it’s not that. That dynamic does pop up, but it doesn’t pop up in that specific way, in that specific location, and I didn’t approach it from that. I also wrote a short story f recently for a
Emily Edwards (09:47.507)
Yeah, exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (09:56.791)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
David Avallone (10:05.77)
an anthology called Multiverse of Mystery that was a Sherlock Holmes in the Multiverse thing. And I was one of the last people invited on and the editor said to me, For the love of God, don’t do science fiction. Everyone
Emily Edwards (10:09.27)
Ooh.
Emily Edwards (10:14.06)
I love it.
David Avallone (10:23.053)
Everyone took the multiverse thing really seriously as if to mean it has to be science fiction. But but she said, My what I meant was it’s Holmes and Watson, but they are not consulting detectives in Victorian England. That’s it. But you like anything other than that is an alt is an alternate reality. And off the top of my head I pitched
Emily Edwards (10:30.144)
In a laboratory or space or
Emily Edwards (10:38.382)
Holmes at Watson. Yeah.
David Avallone (10:47.665)
Holmes and Watson are beat cops in New York City in the nineteen seventies and she went, Great, I love it.
Emily Edwards (10:53.794)
Perfect.
David Avallone (10:55.205)
The magic of coincidence and how I work, and then we’ll talk about Miller’s Crossing, is that I had no idea in my head about what the story was gonna be at all. And I like Holmes. I am not a Holmes fanatic, super fan. I don’t know the work super, you know, I don’t know every corner of Holmesana.
Emily Edwards (11:07.885)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (11:11.649)
Aficionado, yeah.
David Avallone (11:17.105)
But as I often do, I went, Okay, well the period is late seventies in New York City. What’s a big showy crime in the late seventies in New York City? Well, there’s the biggest, showyest crime, Son of Sam. Yeah, that’s another one. But but I thought of Son of Sam and I thought of okay, what is you know, Son of Sam is a guy who tells the police that his dog is telling him to serial kill women. And I thought, my god, what’s the most
Emily Edwards (11:29.184)
Yeah. I was gonna say either that or the torso murderers in Times Square. Those are the only two.
Emily Edwards (11:42.382)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (11:45.738)
That’s what happens.
David Avallone (11:47.045)
And I thought, my God, what’s the most famous Sherlock Holmes story? The mo one of the most adapted to film ever. And on my God, I can do Hound of the Baskervilles in New York, in Harlem in the in the seventies, and it’s on or in the upper west side. So it it’s the junkyard dog of the Baskervilles is the title of the story. And and the Baskervilles are a without giving away too much, are a very Trump like
Emily Edwards (11:52.024)
How do the Baskervilles
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (11:59.523)
been son of Sam.
Emily Edwards (12:04.822)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (12:08.831)
my god. I love it.
David Avallone (12:17.103)
a you know, a acquisitive New York family building skyscrapers and putting their names on it and whatever. And of course, what’s the plot of
Emily Edwards (12:18.326)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (12:22.51)
What? You mean that haven’t always been evil?
David Avallone (12:28.039)
But that but that’s the joke is that what’s the plot of the Hound of the Baskervilles is a guy driving an old man to sanity and insanity and death because he wants to inherit some real estate. Real estate real estate is the root of all evil. Like we know that from Scooby-Doo on. but it’s also Hound of the Baskerville. I Hound of the Baskervilles is really the ultimate, the original Scooby Doo story. It’s, you know, someone pretending to, you know, creating the pretense of a supernatural entity, and instead it’s like
Emily Edwards (12:38.604)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (12:43.871)
Exactly.
Emily Edwards (12:51.296)
It’s true. Haunted house.
David Avallone (12:57.579)
it’s just the guy who wanted to buy the house. Yeah. So yeah, I did a story that’s basically Donald Trump trying to drive Fred Trump. But the opening scene is detective police detective Sherlock Holmes saying to Captain Lestrade, What kind of idiot are you for believing the talking dog story? He’s just a maniac that kills women, man. Like he’s
Emily Edwards (13:00.236)
Yeah, he painted his dog, decided to make someone go nuts.
Emily Edwards (13:25.896)
He’s just nuts.
David Avallone (13:27.141)
He’s trying to he’s trying to appeal to your prosaic policeman’s mind and come up with a Baroque explanation instead of just the obvious one, which is he hates women and wants to destroy them. What’s wrong? Why are you such an idiot? And Lestrade busts him and Watson down to patrolmen and on their first night back on patrol, you know, an old man staggers out of an alley and dies and they, you know.
Emily Edwards (13:46.838)
I love it.
David Avallone (13:52.89)
It becomes the Hounder of the Baskervilles in in Trump Tower. But all that to say, like. But that’s one of my favorite things about writing is that I did not have that idea at all. And I just went, the Hounder of the Baskervilles and Son of Sam. That lines up really, really neatly. Yeah. And I’m kind of surprised no one no one made that connection before because it’s so
Emily Edwards (13:57.277)
my god.
Emily Edwards (14:06.569)
yeah.
Emily Edwards (14:11.579)
It it’s shockingly neatly.
Emily Edwards (14:18.59)
Literally I’m sitting here going like the like the the boggle game of trying to come up with, you know, ideas and twists and changes. Cause again, when you are writing this specifically in a genre, like you’re going to end up trotting some well-worn boards. And and I think what’s really inter in a masterful transition to talking about Miller’s Crossing, I think it’s really interesting that you use the phrase like moribund IP and like.
David Avallone (14:30.781)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (14:34.18)
Absolutely.
Emily Edwards (14:46.562)
That is where so much of the Cohen brothers’ early work really came from their own understanding of noir fiction and detective fiction, and trying to translate that and sort of pastiche it onto the screen. And so I when we were chatting about what movies we could discuss, we were coming up with you would suggest a couple that were like more loose translations, but this is a pretty
David Avallone (14:51.61)
Absolutely.
David Avallone (15:15.251)
it’s it’s yeah. It’s it’s pretty one to one. Yeah. It’s pr it’s pretty one to one. And I love that they that they tried to like you know, they to they stayed out of legal trouble by saying, well, it’s inspired by Red Harvest and the Glass Key. It’s really just the glass key. Like it’s to the degree that it owes anything to Red Harvest, it’s because it’s Dashell Hammett and the language is what the language is and the characters are what they are.
Emily Edwards (15:15.672)
Faithful Yeah. Cut and paste. Yeah.
David Avallone (15:42.961)
But this is the triangle of Paul Madvig and Ned Beaumont. And like it’s it’s that story about that friendship and the woman that comes between them and the murder that comes between them and all of that and drenched in all of the Dashell Hammett. And I think no, go ahead.
Emily Edwards (15:43.395)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (16:00.508)
Yeah, but what I find really interesting is there’s no who done it in Miller’s Crossing. It’s just simply murders happen, we know who does it, and it the ties that unbind because of it. There’s no mystery to it whatsoever.
David Avallone (16:05.446)
No, not really.
David Avallone (16:14.179)
No, no, I that’s why I thought about that. I thought, well, Ned Beaumont or not Ned Mo Reagan isn’t really a detective in any way. You know, he’s a mob enforcer for an Irish you know, mob boss in what seems to be New Orleans ish, kind of a southern city. No, but it’s set yeah, but it’s set in it’s it’s supposed to be set in the south. It’s not nothing really signals that, but that’s the that was the idea.
Emily Edwards (16:20.078)
Tom, yeah.
Emily Edwards (16:25.55)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (16:31.978)
It’s New York. Let’s be they talk about going to the Palisades.
Emily Edwards (16:39.82)
Yeah.
David Avallone (16:43.937)
And the murders, I mean, it’s it reminds me that aspect of it is a little more Chandler to than Hammett in that it’s like, it doesn’t really matter who killed Rug Daniels. We’re not he we’re n it’s not about that. We you know, when that’s the story’s about friendship and about how it, you know, what you’d what you’d do for a friend, including lose their friendship because you’re trying to save them from a bad situation.
Emily Edwards (16:52.982)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (16:57.216)
Nope. Nope.
Emily Edwards (17:10.271)
Exactly.
David Avallone (17:12.421)
And also that, you know, the what what they’re so good at is the muddiness of human Tom Reagan doesn’t even know if he’s doing it because he loves Marcia Gay Harden and wants her to not go off with his best friend. It could he could absolutely just be je motivated by sexual jealousy and he’s making it about friendship to to tell himself a pretty story, but
Emily Edwards (17:21.453)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (17:29.227)
Exactly.
Emily Edwards (17:35.394)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Avallone (17:38.395)
And the Cohen’s don’t give you an answer on that really, which I think is good. I mean and you know, no one because there are no there are no easy answers and you know no one no one really ends up happy, you know. but it’s you know, and look, the there’s a part of me that goes, Look, they’re all there’s no one in the movie that’s not a degenerate criminal. Like you know, every everyone’s pretty everyone’s pretty bad and they have different
Emily Edwards (17:41.922)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (17:51.372)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (18:01.924)
yeah, no, everyone’s terrible. I love it.
David Avallone (18:06.673)
Things that make them interesting, and we sympathize with Tom because we’re in his shoes almost literally for the whole story. But
Emily Edwards (18:14.165)
Mm-hmm. But there’s no good reason for you to like hit you know, want him to survive and succeed over anybody else in the movie.
David Avallone (18:17.841)
Not particularly. Well, what I but what I love about the mov one one of my favorite things about the movie, I I should mention in full disclosure, a pretty good friend of mine who’s passed away now, has the first line in the movie and is the movie’s villain in some way, which is the great John Polito. just a lovely, lovely guy. And one of the things that I love about this movie and I love about the Cohen brothers, is that he is
Emily Edwards (18:40.619)
Amazing in this movie.
David Avallone (18:48.507)
The most violent, the most degenerate of all of them, and he is absolutely 100% right. The heroes are wrong in his first speech of like, it’s about character, it’s about ethics. And I love there’s nothing better to me than getting away with as a writer, having a character in your first scene go, I’m gonna lay out the thesis of the film out loud.
Emily Edwards (18:51.779)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (18:55.511)
Yes. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (19:16.096)
The first paragraph
David Avallone (19:17.743)
And in no uncertain terms, I’m gonna say, sure we’re criminals, but there has to be a code of conduct or it’s chaos. That’s how the universe works, is that there has to be order. And Johnny Casper, even the little detail of him telling his son how to shave properly, that you have to is like Johnny Casper knows how the world works. Johnny Casper knows that cold water makes steel shrink.
Emily Edwards (19:24.203)
Yeah.
Exactly.
Emily Edwards (19:32.323)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (19:39.063)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (19:43.395)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (19:46.437)
And makes your blade sharper. Johnny Casper understands the world. But what he his weakness is his heart. Is that he loves people and believes in them, and when when he is convinced that they have betrayed them, he goes off like a psychopath. But but I love the villain is the one who understands how the world works, and everyone else is wrong and bad, including our our heroic.
Emily Edwards (19:46.935)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (20:02.169)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (20:11.425)
Exactly.
David Avallone (20:15.355)
you know, Irish figures. and that’s
Emily Edwards (20:19.225)
Just gorgeous blue eyed Gabriel Byrne just giving those eyeballs to the camera whenever he can.
David Avallone (20:25.041)
Yeah. No, and they you know, and they discovered Marsha Gay Harden, who is a fucking revelation in this movie, you know. And everyone in the movie they they managed to cast an entire movie where everyone manages to sound they all get the sound of nineteen thirties speech right. And it’s not even that they’re doing they’re not doing the Hollywood mid Atlantic thing. They’re doing and they’re doing Dashell Hammett.
Emily Edwards (20:31.715)
Dynamite. Yeah. The w
Emily Edwards (20:43.807)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (20:49.871)
Mm. No, they all have their natural accents.
David Avallone (20:54.257)
They’re doing that even the you know, the casual racism of the some of the characters, one of my favorite lines in the movie, just ’cause it’s so like, what’s one Hebrew more or less? Like it’s just like like but but that’s the language.
Emily Edwards (20:55.319)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (21:00.575)
Yes.
Emily Edwards (21:08.675)
The you know, one of the things that I love about the language that they use is that they they are very good at creating their own vocabulary. And it might have been vocabulary pulled from it, but the fact that it’s repetitive lets you know that they are all of the time period. And so every single time someone bursts into an office or bursts into an apartment or bursts into a room, someone goes, What’s the ruckus? And it’s just every single time.
David Avallone (21:30.075)
What’s the rumpus? Yeah. Yep.
Emily Edwards (21:33.61)
It’s what it that is the opening line. And so you know that they’ve created a world where that is just how people speak. And it’s just so masterfully done. And again, like you’re saying, like one of the greatest things that the Cohen brothers ever do is their casting is always phenomenal. And they do pull from the same sort of pool of talent over and over and over again, but it’s never without reason. And you know, this is the first time that they’ve worked with John Taturo. This is, I think, the first time they work with Steve Busemi.
David Avallone (21:40.253)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (21:59.953)
Right.
Emily Edwards (22:02.369)
And it’s just like, no, those are the men, those are the mugs, those are the faces that you had envisioned in your brain, and you managed to find them and you’ve managed to cull these absolutely brilliant talents. Cause even though you have someone who’s classically handsome, like Gabriel Byrne as your lead sort of man, it everybody else everybody else around him with real faces makes him look more like a person.
David Avallone (22:06.493)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (22:27.843)
Who’s meant to be there, who actually exists in in real life and isn’t just movie star Gabriel Byrne.
David Avallone (22:29.361)
Yeah. yeah. Yeah. No, and it’s yeah, it’s the first time they worked with Polito and you know, I I think that’s an Academy Award performance. I I think he deserved a supporting actor nomination because the character has a beautiful arc. He’s like one of the only characters in the movie that kind of has an arc, even like you know, the the events change him a little bit. Tom remains unchanged throughout. but it’s a i yeah, it’s brilliantly cast, it’s brilliantly shot, it’s got a
Emily Edwards (22:41.503)
Mm-hmm. absolutely.
Emily Edwards (22:48.664)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (22:59.215)
a it’s got a great score that knows to get out of the way a lot of the time. but it
Emily Edwards (23:05.566)
interesting. I thought the score was a little much.
David Avallone (23:08.101)
No, I li I lie. But but in the he it’s that they’re obsessed with like the the they really like the sound of f folk tunes and you know, like f the theme of Fargo is very much a folk tune, the theme of Raising Arizona is very much a folk tune and this is this is that as well. you know, it’s and it’s a little it you know, i it’s funny ’cause it’s a little more
Emily Edwards (23:17.966)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (23:22.082)
Yeah.
David Avallone (23:36.253)
positive and major key than the movie itself, but then it but it has it but it has a darker turn to it. and I think that I I think that works well. They also borrow from Dashell Hammett the and I the it’s one of the things in the movie that I think they they could have worked on gotten a little more juice out of the orange. Hammett gets a lot more juice out of the dream sequence.
Emily Edwards (23:40.205)
Yeah, definitely.
David Avallone (24:03.269)
The idea of the which gives the book its title, The Glass Key. The idea of, you know, the world is I think it’s she imagines there are snakes and she you have to lock the door against the snakes of the world, but it’s a glass key and it breaks in your hand. You know, that’s a little better than ch a man chasing his hat, you know. that that’s that’s not their bet that’s not their their sharpest metaphor, but that’s a that’s absolutely a quibble. but it’s
Emily Edwards (24:03.809)
Yeah, yeah.
Emily Edwards (24:13.56)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (24:19.619)
Right.
Emily Edwards (24:23.127)
Yeah, exactly. Through a forest. It’s
David Avallone (24:33.467)
Yeah, I I you know, the I saw it I was a huge fan of theirs from Raising Arizona. I mean I was a fan from Blood Simple, but Blood Simple could have been a one off. you know, if they had made another and I s I say this with no disrespect, he’s a a fine, fine filmmaker. But like if they had been John Dahl instead of the Cohen brothers, they would have then made five movies like Blood Simple.
Emily Edwards (24:40.75)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (24:46.605)
Yeah, that could’ve been a fluke.
Emily Edwards (24:58.339)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (25:02.257)
You know, John Dahl, you know, Red Rock West and trying to remember some of his but he made a great cycle of like Desert Noirs with Nicholas Cage, you know, in the nineties, but he didn’t have a he didn’t have another idea, you know, the last seduction is it like he just kept making he he just kept making other versions of that story, and that’s fine. But the Cohen’s even though they have their obsessions, like kidnapping, strangely, is a thing that happens in almost
Emily Edwards (25:02.444)
Right. Right.
Emily Edwards (25:11.439)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (25:17.025)
Right. Right. There was no next thing.
Emily Edwards (25:30.231)
Yeah, that’s a big one.
David Avallone (25:31.749)
Almost all of their stories involve a kidnapping one but they have a they have a a wider lens than that and they’re interested in more things. And of all the things they ever done, this one I mean, you know, no c no country for old men is literally an adaptation of someone else’s work. And so is true grit. But true grit is one of those where you go, sort of like Miller’s Crossing, this is where they write that verbose little child is like all of their characters.
Emily Edwards (25:48.291)
Yeah, exactly.
David Avallone (26:01.905)
They love that. They love the unexpectedly verbose, thoughtful, sophisticated, you know, the the thing coming out of the unlikely source is like their favorite dialogue trick. and they do it a lot.
Emily Edwards (26:02.305)
Yes, exactly.
Emily Edwards (26:06.796)
Mature.
Emily Edwards (26:13.419)
Right, right. Right. Which works so well with John Polito’s character, which is just he never shuts up, you know, and he’s so loud. He’s his his voice when he’s speaking in a room is decibels louder than everybody else’s, which you which is partially playing into the Italian stereotype, but you know, at the same time it’s it’s he’s like I they are specifically trying to tell you we need you to hear this because he
David Avallone (26:18.821)
Yeah, no, yeah.
David Avallone (26:32.475)
Absolutely.
Emily Edwards (26:39.853)
As you keep mentioning, he is the correct person. He is the person who’s trying to hold the uncouth uncharacter nether world together by, you know, by all that. And then, you know, I think for me, one of the more interesting aspects of Cohen Brothers movies, because I’m not the world’s biggest Cohen Brothers fan, but I will say that the movies that really shine for me are the ones where they allow their female characters to have.
Reasons for doing things. And this one for me kind of just skates a little bit around Verna’s desire to, you know, see which way the wind is blowing. I think if and again, Marcia K. Harden is so amazing in this that you kind of don’t notice that Verna is not quite given a reason for making a decision. You know, I feel like it’s it’s just a little, it it skirts it a little bit and
David Avallone (27:10.844)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (27:30.301)
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I I feel like like every character in the movie, all of her decisions are based around survival. And because she isn’t a tough guy with a handgun, like literally every other character in the movie, she’s got what she’s got, which is that what she’s got is that the two most powerful men in town are in love with her. And that’s it. That’s all she that’s the only part that’s the only move she can make. And that’s more, you know
Emily Edwards (27:40.623)
Я
Emily Edwards (27:49.967)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (27:54.735)
Mm. Exactly. You know, and I think
David Avallone (28:02.289)
Hammett’s version of her is a little more of just a classic ingenue. She’s not, but she’s got like there’s no, you know, she’s not as self focused as Verna is. Verna is it Verna is much more like, I have to survive and my brother has to survive and what I have to do to make that happen.
Emily Edwards (28:07.129)
Cynical. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (28:19.328)
Right.
David Avallone (28:29.553)
You know, and she has the bad luck that her brother’s an absolute piece of shit. I mean her brother is actually the
Emily Edwards (28:33.743)
Her brother is a degenerate piece of garbage. I like how well it’s mirrored, though, in Francis McDormand’s like 30 seconds on screen with the secretary, where she is so good. The women in this movie, there’s two of them, they are so obvious that they’re like, any I want my bread buttered and I don’t care who butters it. And that’s like the mo that’s the most wonderful aspect of this. And I just wish like my own personal desires to either have.
David Avallone (28:36.421)
Yeah, he is he is the worst.
Emily Edwards (29:02.007)
maybe one more woman in the movie who’s able to show you that again, they’re not the ones packing heat, or if they do have a gun, it’s a purse revolver, and what can it honestly do? You know, their their power is significantly limited. And I feel like Hammett and most of the noir writers were were more intent on showing you that that was the fickleness of women and that all women are just opportunistic whores. And like I feel like the Cohen brothers are slightly better at showing like
David Avallone (29:30.077)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (29:30.977)
No, it’s just that they have the absolute shortest end of the stick in the narrative, pretty much always.
David Avallone (29:36.293)
Yeah. Well I mean, you know, the one thing I’ll say in Hammett’s defense is just that he
His characters aren’t meeting nice women. Like, you know, they’re like the circum the exigent circumstances are not there to to to to have them come across people who aren’t liars and cheats and scumbags. I mean, and if you look like look at the you know, in the Maltese Falcon you could argue that Bridget is the worst, but I don’t know. They’re Gutman’s terrible, Cairo’s terrible.
Emily Edwards (29:47.852)
No, that’s true.
Emily Edwards (29:59.898)
That’s true. Like yeah, everybody in the narrative.
Emily Edwards (30:11.095)
all pretty terrible. Yeah. Yeah.
David Avallone (30:11.793)
The cops are terrible. Like everyone’s kind of in Hammond, I think it’s much more it’s like when people call William Burroughs a misogynist. I’m like, well, yeah, but he doesn’t like men either. Like, you know, like he likes he likes sex with underage Arab or Mexican boys. But aside from that, I don’t know that he’s got a lot of warmth for humanity. Yeah, and I think in Hammond it is there is a kind of bracing like
Emily Edwards (30:30.593)
Yeah. I don’t think he likes anyone or anything.
David Avallone (30:41.433)
Everybody’s bad. Like he doesn’t hold up angel Chandler, Marlowe meets angels every now and again. And Marlowe meets fallen women who can be redeemed all the time. which Hammett mm there’s n
Emily Edwards (30:43.94)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (30:49.367)
Every now and then, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. It’s its own which is its own misogyny, you know, where it’s just like, women just need to be rescued and you’re just like, No, they can be evil assholes too. Like like self-serving, self-focused, evil people, you know.
David Avallone (31:00.123)
Yeah, but it
David Avallone (31:10.181)
Yeah. Yeah, and that and I mean, and that’s Bridget O’Shaughnessy. you know, and that’s and I’m an outlier on that. I I love the Maltese Falcon. I think it’s a great film. I think Houston weirdly desexualizes the text. The book is very sexy, and the women in the book are incredibly sexy, and he kind of has all three women in the movie are vaguely maternal. And I’m like, I don’t know what’s going on with you, John. And it’s like it’s not like Mary Esther couldn’t be hot stuff.
Emily Edwards (31:14.999)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (31:24.93)
yeah. absolutely.
Emily Edwards (31:35.447)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (31:40.665)
She’s incredibly hot stuff in other movies, but in this, I don’t buy the the sex was so fantastic, I’m having a hard time sending you to prison. Like I don’t Veronica Lake could have convinced me of that, but not Mary After in that part. I don’t know why she’s you know, it’s not working. But but yeah, the the I would say the most positive female character in Hammett is probably, and I’m spacing on her name, the woman in the glass key.
Emily Edwards (31:40.909)
Yeah, exactly.
Emily Edwards (31:50.639)
Not at all.
Yeah.
It’s not working.
David Avallone (32:09.52)
who is actually worthy of love and worthy of being saved and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Janet Henry, if I remember correctly. But
Emily Edwards (32:10.549)
Mm-hmm. Janet at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daughter daughter to spoil a very old movie, she’s the daughter of a a senator whose son gets murdered as well. And it turns out the senator killed his son, and Janet’s just like, crap. Now what are we gonna do? And the our main our main protagonist, Ned, ends up
David Avallone (32:32.967)
Covering. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (32:37.549)
running off into the sunset with her, even though Ned himself is a degenerate gambler and heavy for a different monster.
David Avallone (32:41.413)
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s inter you know, and it’s funny because the the there’s a very good film version of it with Alan Ladd and Veronica Lake. and it softens the and Brian Donlevy is is very what’s the word? The is the Albert Finney character from this movie from Moore’s Crossing. And Brian Dunley Donlevy is one of those character actors who’s fantastic and people like
Emily Edwards (32:56.984)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (33:03.97)
Right.
David Avallone (33:12.121)
He’s not in enough he’s n he’s not in a movie that has the veneration level of Casablanca, so people don’t he’s kind of passed away. But he was a very he he did always play a certain kind of guy. it’s it’s funny. I th th the he had he’s in a movie about the execution well, the assassination of Heydrich by the re the Czech resistance.
Emily Edwards (33:19.317)
Mm-hmm. Consider him.
David Avallone (33:41.255)
called Hangman also die and he’s the hero in that actually, which is unusual for him. But he’s the villain in Bow Jest and he’s incr he’s in indelible in that movie. He’s incredible. and the way they change the you know, the the the the mid the the the unhappy ending is Miller Crossing where Verna is sticking with Albert Finney for now.
Emily Edwards (33:41.635)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (33:51.534)
Right.
David Avallone (34:08.377)
And Tom just has to watch them go off together and know that he’s he was trying to protect both of them and he lost both of them, which is a pretty classic film noir. Yeah. It’s it’s gonna go badly. but he has no place in town anymore. He doesn’t have his place as her lover, he doesn’t have his place as as Finney’s right hand man. And then the middle range unhappy ending is Glass Key, where
Emily Edwards (34:08.514)
Right.
Emily Edwards (34:14.861)
Yeah, exactly. They’re not gonna be good for one another. It’s going to end in disaster.
Emily Edwards (34:29.483)
Enforcer, yeah.
David Avallone (34:38.139)
The Albert Finney character finds them together and just runs out of the room humiliated and lost. And then the happy ending is the film version of Glass Key, where Brian Donlevy realizes they’re together and says, you two wonderful kids. I love you both. Go off together and be happy. You know, you’ve both humiliated me and made me look like a sucker. But I guess I love you so much.
Emily Edwards (34:41.923)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (34:57.891)
Yeah, exactly. you kids.
Emily Edwards (35:04.913)
shucks, like
David Avallone (35:06.853)
And you know, to his credit, Don Levy all three of them make that scene work. And it’s it it works just fine in the movie. but it’s it’s just an interesting like how the that le the level of cynicism in Hammett and the level of cynicism in Miller’s Crossing, you didn’t really want to do that in nineteen thirty seven, thirty eight, whenever the whenever the even though, you know, we do get the cynical ending of the Maltese Falcon pretty much completely intact.
Emily Edwards (35:29.366)
No, that wasn’t gonna fly, yeah.
David Avallone (35:37.489)
you know, aside from Humphrey Bogart ad libbing Shakespeare at the end, the stuff that James and made up. That was the the the the book is the the movie is very, very faithful to the book, only dropping one scene that I love. But there’s no like in the book the ending is they take her away and he watches her go and that’s the end. And Houston and Bogart were apparently shouldn’t he have something to say? Like and there’s some
Emily Edwards (35:37.741)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (35:44.153)
Ha ha ha.
Emily Edwards (36:01.242)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (36:06.031)
Like he needs the last like kicker. Yeah, exactly. When you’re writing like a profile piece on someone and it’s like you need a good last line. Come on.
David Avallone (36:07.365)
And there’s some wrap-up. Yeah. And and bo and yeah. And and Bogart came up with paraphrasing is that from is it I’m trying to remember w what Shakespeare play that’s from, but we are such stuff as dreams are made of is the is the Shakespeare quote. And he he he
Emily Edwards (36:31.724)
God I have no idea.
David Avallone (36:34.269)
He he wrapped it around. But yeah, it’s it’s yeah, I can’t remember. It’s from one of the big three. It’s from it’s from Hamlet or Lear or or Macbeth, I think, but not a hundred percent sure. Anyway, it’s you know, but it’s but it’s a it’s a great ending and it does, you know, it sells the whole it sells the whole the whole thing. And I should mention I I adapted the Maltese Falcon to a comic book.
Emily Edwards (36:44.644)
I p yeah. I don’t know, that’s not my area of expertise.
David Avallone (37:03.065)
giving it the most unlikely I wrote a red Sonya comic book, you know, set ten thousand years ago in Rakania, where Sonya gets involved with the hunt for an an artifact called the Crimson Calypso. which is a it’s a statuette of a goddess that is supposedly carved out of the blood, the crystallized blood of a demon. So instead of it being fabulously
Emily Edwards (37:11.464)
Perfect. Has to
Emily Edwards (37:21.277)
Ha, I love it.
Emily Edwards (37:31.331)
Well, that’s pretty badass.
David Avallone (37:33.213)
you know, w worth a lot of money. It’s it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a magical artifact. And if you’ve read the Maltese Falcon, you can imagine just how effective a magical artifact it is at the end. but it was a it was a fun gag. And I have coming out later this summer that was called Red Sonia Noir. The second Red Sonia Noir is coming out and it’s an adaptation of my favorite
Emily Edwards (37:37.411)
Bejeweled. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (37:43.993)
I like it.
Emily Edwards (37:48.611)
Yeah.
David Avallone (38:00.529)
Hammett short story, which is called The Gutting of Kofanyal, which is basically Die Hard on Catalina, is the original story.
Emily Edwards (38:07.341)
Yes. that’s such a good short story. I love that short story.
David Avallone (38:09.819)
Well, Red Sonya is going through all of it. and I you know, like what’s the what’s the sword and sorcery version of a machine gun? A dragon. A dragon. There’s a dragon in it. but yeah. It’s the most private eye line I gave her in that is when she searched first sees the the dragon. The dragon has destroyed the bank, the silversmith shop, and the militia barracks. And she says
Emily Edwards (38:20.008)
And perfect. Sold.
Emily Edwards (38:38.126)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (38:40.443)
You know, in my experience, a dragon problem usually turns out to be a wizard problem. But and the guy’s like, What are you talking about? And she’s like, Dragons, that’s pretty precise for a dragon. The banks, the silversmith shop, the cops. Like she killed the cops and and blew up the places the gold is. I don’t know, man. That kind of doesn’t seem like a thing a dragon would do of its own accord.
Emily Edwards (38:53.247)
Exactly.
Emily Edwards (39:00.621)
Yeah. Dr Yeah, a dragon on its own volition would eat some sheep and go off and take a nap, like
David Avallone (39:08.217)
Yeah. Yeah. Though I have to say my you know, not to continue to tooting my own horn, but my you mentioned the, you know, revolver the the purse revolver line. I had a line that was sitting in my head waiting for the right story for decades. And I did a story, a Betty Page Halloween issue where she’s going up to investigate something and they give her a box with a bunch of things for her mission and in it is a
Emily Edwards (39:23.629)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (39:38.333)
28, 22 caliber Beretta, and she sees it and says at twenty two. What am I supposed to do with this? Hurt his feelings.
Emily Edwards (39:46.488)
Ha ha ha.
David Avallone (39:47.845)
And I have wanted to use that line for a line. It’s like, I finally got an opportunity to introduce a shitty little semi automatic handgun and have the hero say, What do you want me to do? Hurt his feelings? but yeah. Yeah. And the he in question is actually one of Lovecraft’s elder gods, so it’s even more ridiculous. It’s like, yeah, what’s what what’s why am I why are you giving me a gun?
Emily Edwards (39:57.401)
Two bullets.
Such a pulpy line. Have that pinging around.
Emily Edwards (40:10.881)
It’s even more accurate.
Emily Edwards (40:16.46)
Exactly.
David Avallone (40:16.753)
But yeah, it’s it’s fun stu I mean, I’ll say again for my own I hate there’s a there’s a there are reasons to use an acronism when you’re doing period stuff. Sometimes it can be fun. sometimes the joke itself is here’s a bunch of people running around in medieval clothing and we’re having them talk like it’s nineteen ninety eight. That’s its own joke. But for me
Emily Edwards (40:27.747)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (40:31.662)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (40:42.381)
Exactly.
David Avallone (40:44.827)
The entire joy of writing period material is you get to use a different language, is you get to you get to speak in that voice. And how much fun is that? And getting that right means a lot to me. And sometimes you do have to like go, well, a modern audience, even in context, that word is misleading. but like for example, in in that
Emily Edwards (40:52.484)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (41:01.262)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (41:10.7)
Exactly.
David Avallone (41:15.183)
In that same Betty Page story, I had a line, or in a different it was another Betty Page story. I had a line where
Betty is talking about two two people walk in a room and the photographer says, Get out of here. What are you doing? And Betty says, I know these two birds. And it’s a man and a woman. And the editor said, Isn’t birds British slang for females? And I said, It is, but American slang in New York City in the nineteen fifties, birds just means a couple of people. It’s not a was like, but you’re but I’m gonna change it because
Emily Edwards (41:35.363)
Right.
Emily Edwards (41:48.121)
People. Yeah.
David Avallone (41:53.052)
You’re right. The modern audience will will get a different will get a different understanding of it. but for example, I d I wrote one where that that series took place in nineteen fifty-three where I had her say, Do what now? Betty’s from Nashville, Tennessee, the real Betty. And I literally went online, I went on Facebook and says, Does anybody have an elderly relative from Tennessee?
Emily Edwards (41:53.941)
Modern understanding is gendered, yeah.
Emily Edwards (42:09.529)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (42:13.465)
Yeah.
David Avallone (42:21.191)
Who can confirm for me that people said do what now in the 50s? And someone literally said, My grandmother is from Nashville, and she still says it. And I asked and she said, I asked, I called her up on your behalf and said, Does do what now go back to nineteen fifty three? And she’s like, yeah. Because I first heard it from a friend from Virginia in 1984. So I knew it was a southern expression, but Virginia’s not Tennessee.
Emily Edwards (42:21.472)
Exactly.
Emily Edwards (42:31.033)
Perfect.
Emily Edwards (42:37.483)
Is this accurate?
Emily Edwards (42:46.852)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (42:50.817)
You know, like but I’ve always liked do what now? Yeah. Yeah. So so yeah, you know, you you try to make it as you know, I think we’ve talked about this before, but like the first episode of Mrs. Mazel had someone say, Let’s do lunch and I was like
Emily Edwards (42:51.617)
Exactly. Yeah. And you will earn that if you get it wrong.
Emily Edwards (43:10.079)
No. Nope. Nope. Nope.
David Avallone (43:11.153)
And that show wasn’t reaching for the cute we’re gonna do have everyone talk like it’s twenty fifteen. Like no, they were trying for some sort of period verimissilitude and didn’t. I actually auditioned for a show. I also I act now and again. I auditioned for Winning Time, which was set in the eighties. Yeah. I got I actually I auditioned for that three times and they never got two of the three times it was for l like
Emily Edwards (43:17.718)
Modern times, yeah.
Emily Edwards (43:25.283)
I didn’t quite get it.
Emily Edwards (43:33.631)
Really?
David Avallone (43:40.753)
famous people that I don’t actually resemble that much. So I was like, okay. So I wasn’t
Emily Edwards (43:43.949)
Yeah. My friend John played Brett Musberger on that show. Yeah.
David Avallone (43:48.672)
okay. Yeah, I I read for some sports announcer from the seventies and I tried to get his cadences down, but I don’t look at all like him, so I think they were just trying to get me on the show, which is nice. But their audition instructions were very much like go back and watch some nineteen seventies TV, no vocal fry, no opes up speak. There people literally spoke differently and don’t
Emily Edwards (43:53.763)
Yeah.
Ha ha ha.
Emily Edwards (44:01.08)
Which is kind, yeah.
Emily Edwards (44:09.774)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (44:14.105)
Yeah.
David Avallone (44:14.939)
You can’t do that. Yeah, like there are things you can’t do with your voice because people just didn’t it wasn’t a waste people people spoke. And that show really didn’t Yeah. And you know, and they really I felt like they did a they nailed it pretty well on on getting that stuff right and mad men all sort of famously was obsessive about that stuff and I thought they did a relatively good job, you know, keeping that keeping that. But again, for me, like that’s the f the fun is
Emily Edwards (44:21.081)
Do it that yeah, it wasn’t invented until nineteen eighty seven. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (44:37.187)
Yeah. Yeah.
David Avallone (44:43.395)
express this thought the way someone would have expressed it in 1933 or you know you know having Betty say things like like fun I will you know that’s that’s gibberish yeah that’s that’s gibberish in modern speech but that is a thing people used to say and you know and yeah every once in a while I do s when I get editorial notes I sometimes
Emily Edwards (44:50.542)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (44:55.149)
Exactly. Exactly. Those phrases don’t exist anymore. Yeah, exactly.
Emily Edwards (45:07.235)
Yeah.
David Avallone (45:11.695)
Image Comics has a proofreader who’s very good at his job, but he constantly sends me notes that are corrections of I have characters in Drawing Blood that are Lithuanians that speak with an I’m imit I’m writing I had a one of my best friends was my old film professor from Bard. we came very close after after I graduated, and he had a hilarious accent and his syntax was hilarious.
Emily Edwards (45:20.964)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (45:24.345)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (45:38.511)
Єс із ол оверс.
David Avallone (45:39.79)
It was it was Yoda like without being that exact thing. But like how he ordered nouns and verbs was fascinating. Cats dance in the rain normally. You know, like he just and he j he also was given to saying just strange shit. But but instead of normally cats dance in the rain, he would say, Cats dance in the rain normally. But he I will occasionally get corrections on the Lithuanian dialogue, and I’m like, this is not someone who speaks English.
Emily Edwards (45:49.476)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (45:53.038)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (46:01.4)
Yeah, exactly.
Emily Edwards (46:06.805)
Incorrect.
David Avallone (46:07.665)
This is not someone who speaks English well, so I I we cannot cut, you know, like frequently, you know, there’s a there’s a subplot about owing money to the mob, and it is always referred to as two millions dollars. and I I got one correction on that, and I was like, it’s even even the non Lithuanians in a jokey way refer to the amount as two millions dollars because they’ve heard the Lithuanians call it that over and over again and their quarter.
Emily Edwards (46:17.604)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, exactly.
David Avallone (46:35.527)
They’re sort of playing it in the way people will play back something that they heard someone else say. but the Coens are masters of that, of of of of all the things they do as a writer. And I I honestly believe that it’s like for me, I think it’s part of the appeal for them, is being able to write you know, with all those old expressions that nobody uses anymore. And, you know, you know, is the
Emily Edwards (46:43.769)
They ra they are.
Emily Edwards (46:54.937)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (47:04.281)
Yeah.
David Avallone (47:05.297)
We just want to know if the theological elements are up to snuff. you know. I’m I think of all of their movies, h hell s Hell Caesar is the one that I love the most that people do not love the most because I think it’s a mass.
Emily Edwards (47:17.709)
I absolutely adore that movie. It’s absolutely phenomenal. But
David Avallone (47:21.295)
And like a lot of I think a lot of their movies are weird shadows of each other. And this may sound but that one is the shadow of a serious man because they’re both about religious the religion. They’re both about the unknowability of God. and this one’s you know, I love the you know the repeated line, the godhead must never be photographed. And of course, we never see the studio head Mr. Skank. He’s he’s always he’s a voice on the phone, but the godhead cannot be photographed, so we don’t ever see
Emily Edwards (47:25.583)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (47:30.647)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (47:38.116)
Ha ha.
Emily Edwards (47:44.815)
That’s it.
David Avallone (47:50.266)
Another fr another dear departed friend of mine is in that movie and he has my favorite line in that movie. It’s almost my favorite line in all the Cohen Brothers, which is he plays the director of the Bible picture that Clooney is starring in and he it’s an off screen line, but he yells Squint against the grandeur.
Emily Edwards (48:04.226)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (48:12.061)
Squint or squint into the and yeah, I think it’s squint against the grandeur, as a as a line of a line of direction. Squint squint against the grandeur. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (48:17.039)
Against the grander.
Because they are very notorious for not letting anybody change their script. Like they don’t allow ad libbing. There’s ums and ahs, you know, notoriously for Big Lebowski, all of you know, like the the ums and the ahs were scripted in there. They are very specific about the lines that they write, which I find really amazing when you do get people like Taturo and Buscemi doing their their patter back and forth, or and
David Avallone (48:36.711)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (48:47.803)
Yeah. Or getting Nicholas Cage to stay on on book must have been something. You know, you know.
Emily Edwards (48:50.233)
To know that
must be a hell. Yeah. Absolute hell. especially because one of the things that I noticed about this movie, and I might have just been awed with this, is that it’s, you know how when we talk about like modern masculinity and things like that. And and and we talk about how weird men now are very homosocial and that they only want to be approved by other men. This movie is extremely
Homosocial. At the end, when Leo, who is Albert Finners Finney’s character, he is more begging Tom to take him back than Vera is. And they are all looking for reasons to stay in each other’s lives. And I just thought that was such an interesting take on the mob movie and the mafioso aspect of this is that they’re nothing without the other powerful men. And as this came out the same year as Godfather.
David Avallone (49:24.31)
yeah.
David Avallone (49:31.798)
absolutely.
David Avallone (49:39.357)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (49:46.805)
yeah.
Yeah. The men love each other more than they love any woman, without a doubt.
Emily Edwards (49:54.166)
they love each other so much, even when they are shooting at each other and want to kill each other. And, you know, the Bernie’s taking my winnings and he’s skimming off the top. And all he wants is to go back to the way things were before Bernie started cheating on him. And it’s such a interesting, beautiful way of looking at like the crime undercurrent after everybody is already saturated in godfather levels of masculinity and that
David Avallone (50:07.047)
Yep. Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (50:23.865)
The the actual blood ties are what matters more than anything. It’s the family, it’s the family and family. And this, they are so good at pulling at the threads of of friendship ties and how much they owe one another in in this messed up world. I mean, my favorite character is probably the chief of police who outside
Every single raid is standing there, and Tom comes out and just shoots the shit with him. And the chief of police is like, no one ever asks me. You know, I’m just the ignored old wife in the corner. No one cares about anything that I have to say. And it’s just such a beautiful play of this male interactions. And at the end, Albert Finney is literally begging for Tom to come back to him. Like he’s cheating on Tom with Verna.
David Avallone (51:13.553)
Yeah. No, absolutely. It I mean, and I think they they hit on something that’s a hundred percent true. In though you know, those men they don’t if you don’t see women as human, if you don’t see them as equal, you want the love and approval of your equals. otherwise you’re not a man, you know, and yes, it’s I mean, and aside from the homosexual social relationships, there are also homosexual relationships.
Emily Edwards (51:26.126)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (51:32.099)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (51:39.459)
Yeah.
David Avallone (51:40.06)
in the movie, which is very true to Hammett. Hammett existed in the world and you know, I think it it would be easy to be reactionary and go, well, like all the all the homosexuals in the Maltese Falcon are degenerate killers. It’s like everyone in the book’s a degenerate killer. Like the heterosexuals are also degenerate killers. It’s not really again, it’s who he he’s not meeting nice homosexuals. He’s not going he’s not going clubbing with them. He’s involved in criminal enterprises with them.
Emily Edwards (51:44.591)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (51:55.37)
Is de generic killer. Exactly.
Emily Edwards (52:03.417)
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
David Avallone (52:09.701)
And I don’t like I really don’t think in Hammett or in John Houston’s movie, there’s a little bit of humor derived from Joel Cairo’s femininity and that he smells like perfume. But it’s there’s not a real like you’re less of a man because you’re a homosexual. You’re not, you know, Wilmer is a Wilmer is a punk because he’s a punk, not because he’s gay. You know, it’s because he’s a he’s a
Emily Edwards (52:21.967)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (52:30.455)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (52:35.679)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. And in this, everybody’s scared shitless of the Dane, even though he’s sleeping with, you know, what is his
David Avallone (52:40.826)
Yeah.
The Dane is the most fearsome character and he’s the gayest character. He’s the one that he is motivated by his love for Steve Buscemi if I remember correctly. And he loses it.
Emily Edwards (52:46.829)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (52:52.905)
Exactly. Yeah, it is that character. I forgot his I forgot his name. It’s like mug or something like that.
David Avallone (52:59.579)
Yeah. but it’s you know, and that’s and no one again, no one is really mocked for it. It’s it just it’s a it’s a there’s a definite acknowledgement in all of these things that it’s a thing that must be hidden and can’t be talked about, you know, but which leads to my favorite lit linguistic tidbit ever, which is the Dashell Hammett in attempting to be cute.
Emily Edwards (53:08.889)
Mm mm.
David Avallone (53:26.973)
Changed the primary definition of a word in the English language, which is fucking wild. That gunsil means boy used by older man for sex. But because the first syllable is gun, everyone assumes that it’s a reference to Wilmer being a hired gun, not being a boy toy. You know, he’s not saying let’s give him your handman, your your your gunman. He’s saying let’s give him your boy toy. You know, when he says let’s give him the gunsel.
Emily Edwards (53:30.837)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (53:40.739)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (53:45.333)
Not yeah. Exactly.
Emily Edwards (53:54.465)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
David Avallone (53:57.0)
from the Yiddish gonsil for goose. He’s saying, let’s give him your little goose here, your little playmate. and now there are dictionaries where it will say definition one, you know, gunman, torpedo, definition two, you know, catamite, archaic, you know. you know. And Hammett was trying to get a I think Hammett was trying to get around censorship. You know, there’s that quite you know, if he had been writing it 30 years later
Emily Edwards (54:02.114)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (54:10.073)
Yeah, hired, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay. You gotta use the yeah.
Emily Edwards (54:22.446)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (54:25.595)
Would he have been as explicit as William Burroughs in describing who Wilmer was? You know, we will never know. you know, just like I would always argue that Hitchcock would have raced to nudity with great excitement. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (54:32.451)
We can’t, unfortunately.
Emily Edwards (54:38.417)
that man would have had Grace Kellyan tippy Hedron and see through nighties and you know he would have been the originator of like the sorority girl slasher flick where they’re just like, we just happen to be topless at all times. He would have loved that.
David Avallone (54:41.743)
Yeah. Yeah. Nudity and gore.
Yeah.
David Avallone (54:51.803)
Yeah, he would have done nudity and gore in a fucking heartbeat if he felt that he could get it past the studios. You know, if he had been coming up in the nineties of the odds. It’s you know it’s the the man was not about restraint. The restraint is all the times the times he’s working in cause him to be restrained about some things that he would not have been restrained about. but
Emily Edwards (54:56.387)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (55:04.557)
De ho
Emily Edwards (55:11.167)
No. Though that that now that you mention it, I do actually was I think I was actually surprised at how restrained the violence in Miller’s Crossing actually was. There’s a couple of real good beaten scenes, but it’s not over-the-top extra, you know, like they don’t linger on it. They want they want to show that it’s there, but it doesn’t it’s not the point of the movie, which I which I appreciated immensely.
David Avallone (55:21.309)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (55:34.906)
No, and I I I think that’s because of who they’re emulating. you know, in the Maltese Falcon there’s almost no on screen violence. you know, in the book, in the book at all, ev every murder is off stage. And in the movie, almost every move murder like they throw in, I think, one shot of Thursby being shot where you can’t see who’s doing it.
Emily Edwards (55:42.02)
Hm.
Emily Edwards (55:47.319)
Yeah, very little. There’s threatening, but yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (56:00.612)
Yeah. Staggering. Yeah.
David Avallone (56:02.117)
And that that’s it. That’s all there is for viol like he punches Cairo once, you know. Like he grabs some guns from Wilmer, but no Wilmer never uses them on camera really that you you know, like in a murder. So it’s I think they’re they were following Hammett in that way. Like the glass key, the ha Ned Beaumont gets brutally beaten up and thrown in a room and he escapes by setting fire to his mattress. and when the house is on fire he jumps out the window.
Emily Edwards (56:07.651)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (56:25.561)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (56:30.223)
That’ll do
David Avallone (56:32.025)
but it’s yeah, they even with their love of gore, which I’m not always on board with as a viewer, it wouldn’t have been appropriate in this ’cause that’s just not the you know, that’s that’s
Emily Edwards (56:41.486)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (56:46.029)
Yeah. They shoot up a they shoot up Leo’s house. That’s probably the most gratuitous, but that’s just majority like sound design where you have the the gunfire in in the fire raging. That’s really like
David Avallone (56:55.675)
Yeah. No, and he you know, and he shoots the he does the the the brilli he shoots the guy in the foot and then when his head hits the ground he shoots him in the head. You know, there there there’s stuff like that. The old man is an artist with a Thompson. that’s another very well I don’t even Yeah. I don’t even know that actor’s name, but the old skinny white dude who’s his last r loyal retainer, who says that to Reagan when he shows up the next day. you know.
Emily Edwards (57:02.667)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (57:07.701)
Yeah. Yes. And they’re so cavalier about it.
Emily Edwards (57:20.769)
Yeah.
David Avallone (57:24.519)
The old man is an artist with a Thompson. you know, and and again, you know, they do the they they do the thing that of the the machine guns with bottomless magazines, but that’s fine. Like I don’t that’s a that’s enough of a that’s enough of a movie trope. I always think every screenwriter, there are some videos on YouTube of people actually firing weapons at full automatic, and it’s like
Emily Edwards (57:25.795)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (57:37.795)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, who cares? That’s the fantasy of the movies.
Emily Edwards (57:51.374)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (57:53.126)
An sixteen rifle is empty in maybe under two seconds. Like like you know, that thing of just like endlessly banging away with a machine gun, it’s like that is just not a thing that you can do. It’s over. You can empty a Thompson in like a couple of seconds.
Emily Edwards (57:57.22)
Like point Yeah, it takes no time.
No. No. I did appreciate in this where one of the guys in the burning house, he is shooting a Tommy gun, but because he’s in pain, he can’t control where it goes. And it’s like, yeah, you need some upper body strength and concentration in order to figure out where that’s gonna go.
David Avallone (58:20.953)
I I have actually fired a Thompson submachine gun. There’s a place in there’s a place in Vegas where it’s still legal because everything is legal somewhere in Vegas, to go to a gun range and fire automatic weapons. And the thing about the Thompson that I I mean, and I’ve not just based on one anecdote experience, but they jam. Thompsons jam a lot and
Emily Edwards (58:24.697)
Few.
Emily Edwards (58:30.935)
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (58:48.815)
And yeah, keeping one steady and hitting what you aim at with one is quite a thing to do. And they’re a Thompson is huge. A Thompson if I I did a movie where I played a soldier in World War II and they gave me a Thompson and the I never fired it in the movie, but the I remember resting it on its I’m five foot six, especially in combat boots, resting it on its stock.
Emily Edwards (58:57.827)
Yeah, they’re really big.
Emily Edwards (59:12.91)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (59:17.464)
On its butt, yeah.
David Avallone (59:17.733)
And the barrel was about mid upper arm on me. Like the gun’s three and a half feet long. Like it’s a it’s a bit was a big and not all Thompson’s are exactly the same. There’s a hundred years of model differences since the gun was invented in the twenties, but it’s still just like that’s a that is a large that is a physically large object to to control. So like
Emily Edwards (59:22.892)
my god.
Emily Edwards (59:36.323)
That’s a substantial
David Avallone (59:44.058)
I I I don’t mind any of the stuff in this movie. There’s a scene in Road to Perdition where six guys get in a Tommy Gun street fight on the street in the driving rain. And I’m like, none of those guys can hit what the hit what they’re shooting at, and all of those guns jam about eight rounds about eight rounds into this fight, all of those guys would be whacking their guns against telephone poles, going, God damn it.
Emily Edwards (59:48.973)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (59:56.13)
No.
Mm.
What I was gonna say.
Emily Edwards (01:00:10.01)
Shit, shit, shit.
David Avallone (01:00:10.759)
Pulling on the charging bolts, trying to get the bullets out. You know, like it’s it’s but again, we there are certain fantasies that we accept in in stuff like this, and the bottomless the bottomless magazine for the Thompson is definitely one of them. But it’s you know, particularly for something so early in their careers, like I mean like like Raising Arizona and like Blood Simple, it’s just such an assured film. It’s so it’s not afraid, it it doesn’t it put a foot wrong really.
Emily Edwards (01:00:21.039)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:00:25.487)
But I
Emily Edwards (01:00:34.829)
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:00:40.617)
you know. And again, the plot is twist is like Hammett, like Chandler, it’s twisty and turny, and ultimately it’s not about what it tells you it’s about. It’s not about, you know, it’s not about who killed Rug Daniels, you know. That it’s about it’s about character, it’s about ethics. You know. I will tell what
Emily Edwards (01:00:41.304)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:00:54.66)
Not at all.
I was gonna say the the the greatest fantasy is that Tom walks away at the end and that Leo lets him. It’s it’s a beautiful fantasy that your paternal figure that’s raised you to be a killer will be like, no, it’s fine. You don’t have to follow the path that I set out for you.
David Avallone (01:01:03.847)
Yeah. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:01:13.425)
Yeah. But, you know, I I Finney makes that work, you know, b by by investing the character with so much charm and so much more. I do have to tell a story that this was the this is the name droppiest thing I will say. I went to Polito’s funeral and Ethan Cohen spoke. Marcia Geharden also spoke. They were both there. They were both apparently remained very close friends. But Ethan Cohen told a great story. I don’t know if you know,
Emily Edwards (01:01:19.341)
He does.
Emily Edwards (01:01:29.37)
Go for it. Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:01:43.624)
The guy who played Nathan Arizona, Trey, spacing on his last name, was going to play Leo. And he died tragically of illness a couple of weeks before they started shooting. And Finney was a late edition, and nobody had met him. Like, you know, they sent him the script. He said yes, he flew down to wherever they were shooting it, and and he shows up and they all go out to dinner, and Ethan said everyone was being really circumspect.
Emily Edwards (01:01:47.322)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:02:06.744)
And then he shows up. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:02:13.435)
And no one was fanboying out, and we were talking about the movie and making polite conversation. And Polito was late. Polito shows up and sits down and goes, Holy shit, look, it’s Albert Finney, everyone. Christ, look at this guy. He’s fucking amazing. He’s the greatest British actor who ever lived. my God, let’s talk about Tom Jones. Let’s talk about two for the road. Let’s talk, you know, like just immediately smothers him.
Emily Edwards (01:02:19.684)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:02:38.885)
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:02:41.603)
In his politoness, and it’s like, Can you believe this, Ethan? Joel, come on, look at this fucking guy. It’s Albert Finney, he’s right here eating steak with us in New Orleans. Amazing. And obviously, this gets a big laugh at the funeral. but Ethan was like, he was so right. Like Finney relaxed, like everyone relaxed because John had done it for John had done the embarrassing thing for us all, and he wasn’t embarrassed. He was like.
Emily Edwards (01:02:47.066)
Who’s here? Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:03:02.916)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:03:09.019)
You know, we’re in the presence of greatness here. Holy shit. You know, and it allowed everyone to be relaxed a mountain Finney for the rest of the shoot. He’s like, but someone needed to break the ice and go, holy shit, it’s Albert Finney, one of the greatest movie stars who ever lived, and he’s here doing our little gangster picture. Yeah, but but yeah, Ethan said it really like kind of saved the day that John was so like
Emily Edwards (01:03:09.869)
No.
Emily Edwards (01:03:23.668)
Exactly. Yeah, they’re no budget movie.
David Avallone (01:03:34.704)
And another, you know, I’m also up friends with an actor named James Urbaniac, a great another great character actor. And in you wouldn’t think of him and Polito as guys who would be up for the same part, but in that thing where they just want someone interesting, he said he was in a lot of audition. Yeah. He said he was in a lot of audition waiting rooms with John. And he’s like it was always like he’s like, there’s always that thing where you’re there for the same.
Emily Edwards (01:03:39.632)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:03:50.17)
Mm. Do you have a face? Do you have a voice? You know it.
David Avallone (01:04:02.109)
heart and it’s a little uncomfortable because you’re rivals, but you’re not. And he’s like, every time I was in an audition room with John, it was like John was having a cocktail party for his favorite actors. Like he was just gracious and a host and like, hey, what have you been up to lately? What have you been doing? This is fantastic. You know, like that he that yeah, that he always, you know, engendered a feeling of warmth in the room. But I, you know, it was in that way
Emily Edwards (01:04:13.668)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:04:18.862)
Mm-hmm. Remove the competition and go for the camaraderie.
David Avallone (01:04:31.665)
I’ve been lucky that I’ve met a lot of people that I admired, James being one of them, before I met them. And I I I wanna say I got over it with Polito. Like I wasn’t starstruck around him, but I always had the moment where he would call and I would see the caller ID and I’d say to my wife, it’s Johnny Casper. Johnny Casper’s on the phone. I’m just gonna I’m just gonna pick this up and see what Johnny Casper wants from me.
Emily Edwards (01:04:56.56)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:05:00.411)
Hey David, I’m having a Labor Day party. If you and Yeah, if you and a wife can come out, we got a great pool, we’ll barbecue some shit, it’ll be fantastic. You know, like it was just the funniest fucking thing. but what a just I met him, some friends of mine had a made a documentary about extras. about that’s a pretty good documentary, but John came to the I think he’s in it, and he John came to the screening and I
Emily Edwards (01:05:00.964)
What’s from me specifically?
David Avallone (01:05:28.625)
You know, sat down next to him and his husband at a bar and with my wife and we became fast friends and exchanged numbers and remained close until until he passed away. But but yeah, just one of those guys who was exactly who you wanted him to be. Though the thing that hides in that voice is
Emily Edwards (01:05:32.676)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:05:51.602)
The Cohen’s were the only people that really hired him to play gay characters in movies, you know, which he was, you know, and and and again, not to lapse into stereotype, but he was a very nineteen eighties gay man from Philadelphia, kind of like, you know, doing that voice, but the minute the door closes, it’s you know, the Coens are are such gentlemen.
Emily Edwards (01:05:59.607)
interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:06:13.796)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:06:18.191)
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:06:19.771)
You know, like it was he was very s he was actually very soft spoken when he turned off the act. when he yeah, he would around me and Augusta, you know, alone in his apartment with his husband, he code switched very differently and reminded me of every theater actor I knew in New York in the seventies and eighties. And but but yeah, the Cohen were one of the few that were like, Would you would you mind if we play you against type for who you actually are?
Emily Edwards (01:06:24.918)
N the code switching, yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:06:45.487)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:06:48.665)
you know, and I think the first one is in The Man Who Wasn’t There. you know, where he does the he he winks at Billy Bob really awkwardly with one eye, and you’re like, What are you what are you what are you doing? That’s really it’s really unclean I think he told me that that was his idea that he told the Corns, I’m gonna they were like, How can you signal something to him that gets him offended?
Emily Edwards (01:06:48.932)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:07:02.416)
Do you got something in there? Like what’s
Emily Edwards (01:07:13.632)
There’s a lot
David Avallone (01:07:14.525)
And he’s like, I can do this really slow, exaggerated wink with one eye. And they were like, that’s so creepy, do that. But yeah, that’s really that’s really awkward. but yeah, he was he was a lovely guy. But but again, like I said, the Coens gave him his best parts across the span of his career. and and as they do, they kept, you know, they kept coming back to him whenever they could. You know, even his tiny
Emily Edwards (01:07:20.938)
That’s disgusting. Let’s go do it. Yeah. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:07:43.494)
Even his tiny cameos are great. We we re-watched Hudsucker Proxy for New Year’s Eve because that’s the New Year’s Eve movie. And even just him going, Musburger. I’m here to see Musburger. That’s it. That’s like his whole bit in the movie. But it’s incredibly good. You know. But but yeah, you know, they there are we all of us have anyone who creates things, we have the artists that formed our
Emily Edwards (01:07:49.828)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:08:15.697)
Who we are and how we express ourselves. And they’re, you know, they’re pretty transparent about their their influences, as as, you know, as I am now also in the Dashell Hammett pastiche business, you know, so am I. But it’s the question is, you know, I think Miller’s Crossing is different enough from the glass key to justify its existence. You know what I mean? It’s not just
Emily Edwards (01:08:19.153)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:08:29.775)
Yes.
Emily Edwards (01:08:42.256)
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:08:43.825)
we’re gonna put on funny hats and and and we’re gonna play in the sandbox. You know, there’s enough there’s a there’s enough of a difference there to the mi the original material while still being, you know and in some case like with True Grit, they’re like, no, we’re gonna be more the John Wayne movie isn’t a Cohen Brothers movie the way the book is. So we’re gonna do the book, which is very much a Cohen Brothers movie. And there are a few books out there where I, you know
Emily Edwards (01:08:46.307)
And we’re gonna play in this sandbox ’cause we can, you know.
Emily Edwards (01:09:06.787)
Yeah, exactly.
David Avallone (01:09:12.519)
There are movies that are better than their books. people don’t talk
Emily Edwards (01:09:17.059)
absolutely. And I would argue that a lot of noir movies are actually better than the books.
David Avallone (01:09:22.523)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I will say you know, it’s a funny thing, like the big sleep, just as an example, I made the mistake I’m I’m I can be a very methodical person. I read all of Raymond Chandler’s short stories first, and then I sat down and read the novels immediately after. And I did this in relatively short succession. That’s a terrible idea. Because Chandler’s first three novels
Emily Edwards (01:09:36.475)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:09:45.265)
Ha
David Avallone (01:09:49.35)
are just three of his better short stories crammed together and reconfigured. And if you’ve just read the three short stories the B s Big Sleep is based on, it’s hard to find it very exciting. You know what I mean? Like it doesn’t land the way it would if you just picked it up and read it. And trying to Lady in the Lake is the other one and Farewell, my lovely, I think are the three that are based on
Emily Edwards (01:09:58.416)
Right.
Emily Edwards (01:10:16.411)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:10:17.287)
That are short stories being crammed together. The good thing about cramming short stories together is you get narrative complexity. You get, you know, three stories are happening at the same time, and that’s more like human life than novels where there’s only one story happening at one time. But Yeah. But it’s and it was a pretty common thing at that time to cannibalize your short stories and turn them into novels. But it it hurts Early Chandler,
Emily Edwards (01:10:23.374)
Right. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:10:30.733)
Exactly. Exactly. Somehow nothing ever conflicts, yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:10:40.345)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:10:44.539)
that you’re familiar with if you’ve read the short stories, you’re familiar with all of the characters and situations and the no surprises for you and, you know, all of that. Hammett never did that. His novels are completely distinct. Even though the first two are the Continental Op, who’s his short story character, he doesn’t just raid three Continental Op stories for a he he creates something brand new.
Emily Edwards (01:10:57.839)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:11:05.365)
No. No. But talk about some a character that d has never gotten its due on screen, I think. The Continental Opp is just yeah.
David Avallone (01:11:11.951)
No, it’s why it’s it’s only gotten its due best as a samurai and a gunslinger in the old west, but never as a never as a prohibition era and it’s funny, I don’t want to call him a private detective because he worked for a company. Like he what he he wasn’t he wasn’t his own man. He was a it’s right there in the name. He’s the Continental Operative. He’s the guy from the Continental Detective Agency. And Hammond, of course, worked
Emily Edwards (01:11:19.258)
Exactly.
No.
Emily Edwards (01:11:28.719)
Yeah, he’s a Pinkerton essentially.
Emily Edwards (01:11:35.15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, my my brain wants I’ve been exp I want Matt Berry to be the Continental Op so badly. but but I could not you know, I the Perry Mason that came out on HBO was not Perry Mason at all. It was very good, but it wasn’t Perry Mason, and it was driving me up a wall. but this, you know, reading the Glass Key and then watching this, I, you know, I can’t think of anybody doing it.
David Avallone (01:11:43.549)
that’s funny. That’s funny.
Emily Edwards (01:12:05.253)
Better. This is pretty
David Avallone (01:12:05.445)
No, there’s no reason to remake the Glass Key because you have the Maltis you have Miller’s Crossing, which hits all of those it hits all those notes. It covers the thematic material about friendship, perfectly well. But even with Yojimbo, there’s a reason to make Red Harvest. The for me, the number one reason to make Red Harvest is no one has yet really done that second act curtain where he wakes up on top of the dead woman with the ice pick and you have to like
Emily Edwards (01:12:15.621)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:12:34.8)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:12:35.771)
Your hero spending the last half of the story going, I’m pretty sure I didn’t commit murder while I was high as a kite. But I’m not a hundred But I’m not a hun and of course that’s where the phrase blood that that literally is where blood simple comes from. Right before he murders her, or doesn’t, as the case may be, right before he passes out high on Laudanum and Scotch, he says, This town has made me blood simple.
Emily Edwards (01:12:43.183)
Yeah. Can’t say for certain
Emily Edwards (01:12:55.622)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:13:04.773)
I could pick up this ice pick right now and kill you with it and I wouldn’t bat an eye because I don’t there’s so much killing I can’t even think about it. Like it it doesn’t affect me morally. I’m paraphrasing badly. But he he says, like, this town has made me blood simple. that it specifically means the stupid you get when you’ve been around a lot of killing. and that’s you know and again in in you know, in Blood Simple they reverse the trope by the, you know
Emily Edwards (01:13:23.505)
Mm.
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:13:33.403)
The detective who’s telling you the story is not only a bad person, he’s dead, you know, at the end of the story. So that’s kind of interesting. Like is he telling it to the cops as he’s suffering from blood loss? Like what’s the where’s that narration coming?
Emily Edwards (01:13:39.259)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:13:51.986)
Writing or like the way people interact with those the old books that we’re talking about. I find the way people interact with that to be so interesting because there’s so most people are so focused on the violence and the cynicism and the anger that underthreads all of it. They ignore the fact that they’re beautifully written books and that the turns of phrase that these gentlemen came up with, by and large, men came up with, are really artful, gorgeous.
Phrasings for things and people don’t really give the actual writing enough credit for how great it is.
David Avallone (01:14:23.569)
Yeah. No.
To the degree that my cultural writing, my podcasts, my essays, whatever, have an overarching theme, it’s that.
we underrate genre writing, and it’s the best writing, particularly that American fiction ha you know, I I like the it’s a it’s a cheap joke, but the difference between the Postman Always Rings Twice and the Great Gatsby is one of them is about rich people.
Emily Edwards (01:14:57.007)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:14:57.703)
There’s the exact same amount of murders. There’s the exact same amount of sex and infidelity. It’s just one’s about a homeless guy and a diner waitress who kill the richest man I know who is not rich. You know, the richest man they know is that’s a diner owner in Bakersfield. Yeah. And the Great Gatsby is about millionaires, you know, is about is about rich people. That’s there is no other substantive d it does not have
Emily Edwards (01:15:00.783)
Mm.
Emily Edwards (01:15:11.973)
Who is not rich?
Got twenty dollars in his pocket. Exactly.
David Avallone (01:15:28.177)
You like it the the Great Gatsby wears what its it wears its thematic in influence on its its thematic project on its sleeve a little bit more than Postman does, but you know, it’s it is. And you know, and and you know, they’re they are a they’re both about the poisonous
Emily Edwards (01:15:38.978)
Mm.
Emily Edwards (01:15:43.793)
Does it bet? Yeah.
David Avallone (01:15:54.372)
aspects of one chasing the American dream and thinking you can only be happy a certain way and two the the poison of jealousy. because you know the two lovers turn on each other because they’ve committed a murder together and now they know the other one’s a murderer. So now they can’t trust each other. Even though it was their plan that they entered into together, now they’re thinking, but this person that I’m in love with is a murderer.
Emily Edwards (01:16:09.623)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Emily Edwards (01:16:20.545)
shit. We’ll kill. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:16:22.947)
Even though I am too, you know, and one of my favorite passages in all of American literature, and I think it rivals anything in the Great Gatsby. I did the podcast about it, is when they are first falling in love and plan and and our narrator says, Hey, let’s get away, let’s let’s run off. We don’t have to they’re they’re like they go out to run an errand, they pull over to the side of the road, fuck in the parked car.
And then in the aftermath he’s like, Look, the Greek doesn’t own you. We could just we could go anywhere. We just let’s hit the road. And she says, and again, I will I’m sorry that I don’t have this memorized. I really should. she says, I’ve been down that road. I know the end of that road. And the end of that road is you in an apron. You in an apron in a mechanic shop, me in an apron in a diner in Los Angeles instead of in Bakersfield and
Emily Edwards (01:16:55.099)
We can just go. Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:17:04.763)
verbeta.
Emily Edwards (01:17:21.947)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:17:22.045)
It would break my heart to see you in an apron.
You’re n in other words, I don’t want to be poor with you. And what is that’s Gatsby. Gatsby’s whole thing is you saw me in an apron and you didn’t like me. Now I’m back and look at all my fucking shirts. Look at all the shirts that I have. God damn it. I’m I am no longer the last time you saw me, I I think if I’m remembering correctly, I was dressed as a doughboy. I was dressed, I was dressed in my US.
Emily Edwards (01:17:28.113)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:17:32.389)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:17:40.504)
Exactly.
Exactly. Yes. Yes.
Emily Edwards (01:17:53.177)
Yeah, he was a soldier shipping off to war. And now he’s like
David Avallone (01:17:56.956)
I was dressed in my US infantry uniform and now I’m this. But it’s the same thematic concern as Postman. Yeah. But it’s also the same thematic concern as Postman always rings twice. The idea that, like, unless you’re rich, you’ll never be happy. But to get back to I gave my dad Burroughs Junkie to read, his first book. And I would say his most conventional book.
Emily Edwards (01:18:05.233)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:18:20.582)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:18:24.399)
And he read it, and from his particular perspective as a pulp fiction private eye writer, he said he said it reminds me of Picasso. Picasso could draw the prettiest picture in the world if he wanted to. He just didn’t want to. He’s like, this guy has the facility of a great mystery writer, which is, and this is what you were talking about in Hammett, in Chandler, in Ross McDonald, and in my dad, of
The thing you have to be able to do as a mystery writer is describe a human being in one sentence. And the audience totally knows who they are. Describe a room in one sentence.
Emily Edwards (01:19:02.533)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:19:09.233)
You make one observation about the blinds or the couch or the lamp and it sets the whole room. Whereas in a gothic romance, you gotta hear about the couch and the lamp and the shades and the my my my father used to call writing gothics hanging the drapes. Gotta hang the drapes. See like every scene, someone walks in a room. What’s the brocade on the couch look like? What’s the side table look like? Are there figurines on it? Is there a lamp?
Emily Edwards (01:19:23.192)
It’s endless.
Emily Edwards (01:19:39.397)
What wood is the goddamn clock made out of? I don’t care, but yeah.
David Avallone (01:19:41.702)
Yeah, like yeah, you gotta hang the drapes. But in a in a detective story, it’s like I took one look at the blinds and knew this guy wasn’t gonna be paying me much. You know, like it’s it just like I it and it it took me the first time I read it I was not as reading as carefully and I just remember going back and going
Emily Edwards (01:19:56.571)
How do you make that conclusion? Doesn’t matter, but you know you draw the conclusion.
David Avallone (01:20:09.041)
When the Continental Op arrives in Poisonville, Personville, which again talk about existentialism, it’s called Personville. his observations as he dri he’s driving into town are the first cop I saw needed to shave and was smoking a cigar.
Emily Edwards (01:20:13.937)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:20:17.317)
Hmm.
David Avallone (01:20:30.597)
That’s the whole town, man. Cops don’t shave and they stand around smoking cigar. Like he makes a couple of other pithy, like little, but like the way like he meets a guy later in the book, and the guy’s wearing a red tie, and he knows he’s talking to a communist union agitator. And he fishes an international workers of the world card out of his wallet because he has one for this exact
occasion should he need to pump a communist for information. I got it, I got my wobbly card on me here somewhere. But but that, you know, one of my favorite things ever in writing in the Maltese Falcon in the in the in the much celebrated Flitcraft story, when he’s telling the story about the guy who blew up his white life, changed everything, and then for existential reasons, and then
Emily Edwards (01:20:57.721)
Yeah. Hey.
David Avallone (01:21:22.885)
settle down and ended up with the same life somewhere else, having completely fallen back into the same groove. He says, His first wife didn’t strongly resemble his sec his second wife didn’t strongly resemble his first wife, but she looked more like her than she didn’t look like her.
Emily Edwards (01:21:40.433)
Ha
David Avallone (01:21:43.09)
So good. The kind of woman that collects the you know, the kind of woman that what if there’s something like the kind of woman that cuts coupons and enters bacon contests. Like, you know, it’s just like there’s a real you know, then he went for security. He married his mom, you know, but but yeah, dad was saying about Burroughs that he had that facility to describe like you know, the room the guy is selling him morphine in and the guy selling him morphine.
Emily Edwards (01:21:45.425)
It’s so good.
Emily Edwards (01:22:08.721)
Cut you to the quick.
David Avallone (01:22:12.731)
And the character, and he’s like, he could have written the best private eye novels anyone ever wrote. He just didn’t want to do it. He had it it had been done by other people and he didn’t feel like there was anything to add to that. You know, and and I think he’s absolutely right. Because Burroughs, when he there’s a there’s a phrase from Burroughs that he throws around sometimes, mythic resonance. and it’s that ability to just like turn a phrase where you go, I know.
Emily Edwards (01:22:25.477)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:22:36.847)
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:22:42.481)
I feel that in my soul. I know exactly what he’s describing. I know what he’s talking about. and the best guys in that field do it really well, you know. And and it, you know, it it works with readers because they’re reading something exotic. They’re reading they’ve never investigated a mystery. but right.
Emily Edwards (01:22:45.221)
Yes.
Emily Edwards (01:23:03.983)
Right. They’ve likely never seen a murder. They’ve never been involved in a heist.
David Avallone (01:23:08.593)
But you create a world that’s vivid for them. And there’s you know, and particularly in the first person writers, they’re seeing it through one perspective, and getting it processed through that perspective. And it allows them to feel that, you know, that experience. and yeah, Glass Key is one of the you know, one of the third person books of Hammett, but it’s still just like Maltese Falcon, it kind of feels
Emily Edwards (01:23:33.937)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:23:36.816)
It’s that third person singular where yes, it’s third person, but we’re never away from Sam Spade or Ned Beaumont. We’re never alone in a room with someone else. It’s never here’s a scene between Mad Vig and the Henry Girl. It’s like, nope. If Ned Beaumont doesn’t know it happened, we don’t know what happened. And I think that’s a valid I think more than a lot of writers, I and this is not a brag, this is just a an idiosyncrasy.
Emily Edwards (01:23:44.911)
Right, we only know one person’s thoughts and feelings.
Emily Edwards (01:23:53.125)
Nope. W yeah. We don’t know what happened. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:24:04.975)
I think a lot about who’s telling the story and to whom and where and under what circumstances.
Emily Edwards (01:24:08.995)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s one of those things I’m struggling with a re thing I’m starting to write right now. I’m like who is telling the story and who is being acted upon because it matters. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:24:16.475)
Yeah. Even if it’s Yeah. Even in third person, you know, ’cause some of the greatest third like to pull an example out of left field, you know, Milan Condera writes nothing but third person as I remember it. But he’s he’s Milan Kondera telling you a story. And he’s telling it talking about, you know, the f one of the first lines of the unbearable lightness of being is I’m imagining my character Tomas looking out a window.
Emily Edwards (01:24:29.413)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:24:36.331)
Exactly.
Emily Edwards (01:24:46.437)
Yeah. Acknowledging the authorial perspective of yeah.
David Avallone (01:24:47.877)
And you go, okay, I’m not we’re not entering a world where the I’m not a guy sitting and reading a book. I’m Milan Kinderas, you know, and then you go all the way to Italo Calvino in If on a Winter’s Night of Traveler, whose whole first chapter is about how you bought the copy of the new Italo Calvino book, If on a Winter’s Night of Traveler, and how you’re looking for a comfortable seat to sit down in to read Italo Calvino’s new book, If on a Winter’s Night of Traveler.
Emily Edwards (01:25:10.224)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:25:17.701)
And now you’re everyone is quiet and you’re telling them in the next room, be quiet. I’m reading Al Talo Calvino’s new book. It’s a it’s hilarious, but it’s also, you know, I I think you can write modern fiction without being that meta. but it’s a it’s such a charming way to acknowledge, hey, look, we know what we’re we know what we’re doing.
Emily Edwards (01:25:17.935)
Exactly.
Emily Edwards (01:25:31.865)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:25:37.862)
Yeah, the the the the you know, when you read Turn of the Screw with Henry James and it starts off with like I was invited to this party and they asked me to tell them a story and you know, that sort of what is it called the epistolary novel where you like find a manuscript and you Scarlet Letter is one of the ones that people are most familiar with, you know. I love it. I love devices.
David Avallone (01:25:53.051)
Yeah. Yep.
I’m a little I’m actually yeah, I’m a little obsessed I’m a little obsessed with how from the nineteenth century to the early twentieth century, you literally could not write science fiction or fantasy or horror without putting that frame around it.
Emily Edwards (01:26:14.083)
Right, the caveat of yeah.
David Avallone (01:26:15.131)
That, you know, e even Tarzan is nineteen twelve, I think. And the first line is, I had this story from someone who had no right to tell it to me.
Emily Edwards (01:26:19.726)
Mm.
Emily Edwards (01:26:25.071)
Right. Right. That distance that you need to, you know, create.
David Avallone (01:26:26.917)
Okay, who who who told Edgar Ice Burroughs the story about how John Clayton, the Earl of Greystoke, is actually a secret jungle boy? Like what’s what’s that about? John Car John Carter is Edgar Ice Burroughs saying, I have an uncle, John, who never seems to age, who vanishes for ten years at a time. He locked himself in a mausoleum, the body vanished and I was left with this manuscript. I don’t know what to tell you, man. You know, you know.
Emily Edwards (01:26:36.057)
Yeah. Was raised by apes. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:26:51.405)
It’s such a fascinating dis distance to kind of want the author to put a separation between them and like the degenerate things that are happening in the text. And maybe that’s one of the reasons why you know, pulp writing was seen as so salacious because it is from the first, you know, person, usually. And you have the people admitting to having these horrible, dirty, angry thoughts. And, you know, there’s no separation.
Between that and the degeneracy on page. It’s the the authorial
David Avallone (01:27:20.997)
No, it’s it’s it’s it’s vivid, which is the thing. And even you know, I think it’s a different mechanism in science fiction and fantasy to the degree that it’s also about and there’s a little of this in the in the in the mystery pulse too of the story I’m going to tell you is outlandish. But it’s I’m not telling you it’s true. I’m telling you that Arthur Gordon Pym wrote this narrative and it’s batshit. You know.
Emily Edwards (01:27:38.863)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:27:42.534)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:27:47.963)
Bad shit.
David Avallone (01:27:50.108)
Mary Shelley is saying, so this friend of my sister’s came back from the Antarctic expedition, and holy shit did he tell a crazy ass fucking story. even what’s what’s and it’s almost so batch it that it’s advanced science fiction. Her last book, The Last Man, which is not good, Mary Shelley’s, is a narrative about the end of the world.
Emily Edwards (01:27:56.08)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:27:59.81)
Exactly. I don’t believe it, but I wanna tell you about it.
Emily Edwards (01:28:15.801)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:28:18.065)
But she claims to have found it like in a hidden cavern in Rome. And it’s like, but it’s from thousands of years in the future? How okay, cool. But she’s even putting a frame around something that’s a futuristic narrative. which does not track at all. But I think there’s something about like a gas that knocked them unconscious, and then they found the manuscript. Like there’s a little bit of
Emily Edwards (01:28:24.326)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:28:34.897)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:28:43.685)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:28:46.779)
Sleight of hand around it, but it’s yeah, there’s a little bit of, you know, try not to pay too much attention to what I’m explaining because it doesn’t make any sense. But I’m always fascinated by that whole like I mean, and look at I’m always surprised when I reread the Odyssey that literally the first written narrative which came out of a spoken narrative is so fucking narratively complicated.
Emily Edwards (01:28:47.889)
We’ll we’ll yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:28:55.409)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:29:06.842)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:29:14.829)
Yes. The first half is telling a story and then the second half is, you know, regaling around a campf yeah. It’s yeah, it’s complex.
David Avallone (01:29:16.188)
That it’s not
Yeah. But it’s literally like the gods talk for a minute and then Telemachus g decides to go find his father because the gods tell him to do it, disguised as someone else. And then, you know, we don’t start from Odysseus leaves Troy. We start from Odysseus washes up on a shore and says, Let me tell you a bunch of crazy shit that’s happened to me in the last ten years. Okay, here we go. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:29:30.256)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:29:40.667)
Nope.
Emily Edwards (01:29:45.207)
Exactly. You would not believe how I got here.
David Avallone (01:29:48.39)
You would not believe this, you know, this this story. And I you know, and and the fact that that’s the fur and someone pointed out I had forgotten this. That there’s a self-insert character and a commercial in the middle of it. I’d completely forgotten this. When he’s telling the story in someone’s co court, I can’t remember if it’s Nasser’s father, he’s before dinner, not him but
Emily Edwards (01:30:11.718)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:30:17.221)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:30:18.287)
A bard tells a story, a storyteller tells a story, and he’s blind, like Homer was supposed to be blind. And Odysseus gets up and says, Before I get started, let’s just talk about how great Eulipidus, whatever the guy’s name was, the bard is. This guy is amazing. What would we do without our storytellers? Throw him a little money. Everybody, everybody throw a little money to the bard. Can we can we have a little kind of what? Everybody. And I just love that there’s that’s that’s in the middle of the
Emily Edwards (01:30:39.311)
Blind guy.
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:30:48.165)
Of the story that Odysseus takes a moment out of his storytelling, you know who’s fucking great is you know, it’d be literally like in a Batman movie, Batman going, you know what’s great? Comic books are just amazing and everybody should read comic books. Like these guys just create amazing stuff, incredible stuff, and it’s so good, and everybody should read comics. Anyway, back to the Joker. You know, like it’s just the funniest I had to completely be because it’s just gonna
Emily Edwards (01:31:12.315)
to you by Campbell Soup and Palmalls.
David Avallone (01:31:14.427)
Yeah, it’s just like four or five lines it in the middle of the poem. So I it like it it never registered on me as Homer stopping the story dead and going, Let’s all throw a buck to the guy who’s telling us the story. Huh? Everyone? Can we all just agree to that that’s great and that this guy’s great? It’s it’s very funny. But but yeah. You know, and Hammett is the thing about Hammett, of course, is he is speaking somewhat from lived experience. And
Emily Edwards (01:31:34.033)
Amazing.
Emily Edwards (01:31:42.821)
Yeah, exactly.
David Avallone (01:31:43.25)
you know he was a detective now obviously you don’t need to have been a detective to write detective novels but i do tell people like if you’re gonna write about guns go to a gun range run a few like doesn’t have to be a Thompson but know what it feels like to hold a loaded gun in your hands is a very psychologically interesting feeling by the way you know like you don’t
Emily Edwards (01:31:57.264)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:32:05.381)
Mm.
David Avallone (01:32:07.825)
You don’t maybe have to have thrown a punch, but you can talk to some people that have thrown punches or been punched and what they felt and what they thought. And you know, that’s what research is for. You know, it it’s always that scene in speaking of the Cohen Brothers and Barton Fink of like he’s struggling to write a movie about wrestling and John Goodman says, you know, I did a little bit of wrestling and he’s not interested. All of the all of the problems that he’s facing, all he needs to do is go, holy shit.
Let me ask you some questions. Tell me some stories about interesting things that happen to you when he’s not interested. The life of the mind. You know, like it’s like, brother, that was just about to solve all of your problems and you just ignored it. But that is, you know, and that’s the basis. I always say that, you know, what defines film noir for me, it’s not hats and it’s not guns and it’s not even shadows. It’s to me, the hero has to be offered a way out that he doesn’t take.
Emily Edwards (01:32:38.107)
Tell me about it. Exactly.
Emily Edwards (01:32:43.803)
Nope.
Emily Edwards (01:32:50.97)
Yes.
Emily Edwards (01:33:07.823)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a perfect
David Avallone (01:33:09.157)
And he makes the it’s about making bad choices. The best the the the heartbreaking scene for me in Sunset Boulevard is when Betty Schaefer shows up at the house. Because he can just go.
Emily Edwards (01:33:19.373)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. He can just go. He can leave the Vikunya coat.
David Avallone (01:33:22.235)
He can just go, but like yeah. But just like Ned Beaumont, he’s also too like he’s he’s being I don’t want to ruin Jack Webb’s life. I you know, like he’s he’s in he’s too deep in the web and he doesn’t see his way out. But to me, the great moment in all film noir is the moment when someone opens a door for the hero and he goes, I just I can’t I can’t step through it. I can’t take this obvious choice to do the better thing.
Emily Edwards (01:33:50.169)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:33:52.209)
You know, all Tom needs to do at any point in this movie is say to Verna, I love you.
Emily Edwards (01:33:52.912)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:33:57.81)
Yeah. Or admittedly, kill Bernie. Nothing gets or kill Bernie Burnbaum. All he needs to do is actually the job that he is being set up to do. And he won’t do it. Yeah. And has to do eventually.
David Avallone (01:34:01.094)
Or kill Bernie Burmbum. Yeah. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:34:08.551)
Yep. And that he knows is the right thing to do. Cause he ’cause the first yeah, after that scene is over, he says to you know, he says to Finney, you know, you know, he’s right. You know. and partially the you know, there is a l you know, the way Polito references the like, you know, his fancy pants, all of you and you know, giving me the high hat. It’s like, yeah, there there’s the racism in
Emily Edwards (01:34:31.971)
Mm-hmm. Exactly.
David Avallone (01:34:36.721)
We’re not treating you as an equal because we don’t believe you’re an equal because you’re an Italian. You’re you’re not you’re not like us. You know. And
Emily Edwards (01:34:41.413)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:34:45.423)
We pass as the the a you know, the wasps easier.
David Avallone (01:34:48.933)
Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s it’s you know, it’s it’s it’s very rich and it it it does the thing that best the best writing does, is even though it’s in a very small world, it takes place in a world that operates on rules and makes sense and you know, it has the right amount of good
Good film noir also there’s a certain amount of unpredictability and chaos and things happening that shouldn’t happen and you know, that you couldn’t have pre y seen coming and that’s the you know, I always say when you write particularly this kind of fiction, but really I think all fiction, the the climax always has to do two things that are completely contradictory, and that’s what makes writing hard. It has to seem inevitable and like it couldn’t have gone any other way.
Emily Edwards (01:35:18.576)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:35:37.925)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:35:41.778)
That’s v that is always hard. Like this is how this had to end. And also, I can’t believe this ended like this. And that’s you don’t always, you know, you don’t always land it, but when you do, it really, really works. And yeah, the the you know, no matter what happens, the circumstances are set in motion from the very beginning that Ned and Leo are not going to be friends anymore because of this disagreement. And
Emily Edwards (01:35:48.751)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:36:09.401)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:36:11.202)
And Reagan is not going Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:36:13.369)
And Verna’s not the source of the dis not the source of the disagreement. It’s a different fundamental disagreement. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:36:18.865)
Yeah. About, you know, we we do it a certain way, we follow the rules, and civilization continues in its cracked way that we have decided that it can continue. You know. I mean and it this is sometimes p you know held up with the Godfather movies as the best, you know, but the you know, the the payoff is slower in coming, obviously in the Godfather movies, since you’re you know, there’s nine hours of them.
and three hours at a time, four hours at a time. but it’s still that and it’s amazing how many people love those movies and don’t really grasp the ironies of it. And the irony is right, you know, the whole idea, the last shot in The Godfather Part 2 is I’ve been saying for six hours that it’s all about protecting my family and I’ve just had my brother assassinated. You know, like that’s the fine that’s why it’s the final moment is like
Emily Edwards (01:36:59.504)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:37:11.653)
Yeah, exactly. And I just killed my brother. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:37:17.083)
I’ve gone so far around in protecting my family that I have to have my brother killed. It’s like, mmm and you know, I I’m one of those people I don’t hate the Godfather Three as much as everyone else. But it is just a repetition of like by pret I’m gonna protect my family to the utmost. look, my daughter’s been killed. Like, oopsie. I guess I failed on every single level to protect anything of any value because you can’t, because that’s not
Emily Edwards (01:37:21.425)
Mm. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:37:38.463)
yeah.
David Avallone (01:37:46.504)
How violence works, you know, that that’s not you can’t solve, you can’t kill your way out of that kind of problem. You know. But and that’s you know, and again, the only reason I bring up the Godfather is that is ultimately the you know, that it’s it’s about someone trying to protect something that ultimately the world he lives in and the life he lives, the code he lives by.
Emily Edwards (01:37:56.923)
Fiction has led me to believe.
David Avallone (01:38:10.573)
is not good for friendships and love, you know, and it will ultimately result in the destruction of both. You know.
Emily Edwards (01:38:19.899)
Yeah. I can’t thank you enough for talking about this with me because I I was on the fence about the movie sort of after I watched it because I think I was expecting something, you know, more stereotypical, more, you know, heavy-handed. And that it was a lighter touch with a lot of the sort of thematic things that we’re so used to getting from the older movies and the more
David Avallone (01:38:34.333)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:38:43.313)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:38:44.155)
The the more didactic way of dealing with mystery and crime, you know, where it’s bad and it is going to hurt you. And, you know, that sort of it’s not that at all. And I’m now actually gonna go back and rewatch it with fresher eyes because I think my my perspective on it has been changed significantly by our conversation. So thank you so much for doing this with me.
David Avallone (01:38:50.929)
Yeah, no, it’s
David Avallone (01:39:05.817)
good. Yeah, I will I will say that the the bookend to it’s about character, it’s about ethics is Tom’s all incredibly nihilist Nobody Knows Anybody. Not that well.
Emily Edwards (01:39:19.127)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:39:21.029)
And that’s bitter personal experience puts me a little bit on Tom’s side with nobody knows anybody, not that well. life provides crucibles and people are tested. And if you have a friendship that has not been tested or a love that has not been tested, you do not know. You know, and and that’s the that’s it’d be anyway. Thank you so much for having me. And I thought this was a this was a a a fun pick and I’m glad we got to talk about it.
Emily Edwards (01:39:40.761)
You do not know.
Emily Edwards (01:39:46.352)
So
Emily Edwards (01:39:50.789)
Me too. Tell everybody about what you’ve got coming out right now and things that are on the market so we can keep in touch with you.
David Avallone (01:39:58.216)
Well, the the main way to keep tabs on me is I have a Patreon and there is a free side with a newsletter that updates you. And the newsletter is it’s not just what I’m up to. I put it out every week and there’s always at least a little essay about what’s on my mind that week. and sometimes it can be very prosaic and sometimes it’s ten pages long and I really had something to say. and what I’ve got coming out
trying to remember like, do I do I log into my own Patreon to remind myself? it’s I think the next thing out is Altered States Warlords number one, which is a Altered States is Dynamite’s version of what Marvel calls what if, where they do an alternate universe. And this is sort of a cross pulp bonanza that starts out with the question.
Emily Edwards (01:40:46.0)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:40:56.227)
What if Red Sonia got to Mars ten thousand years before John Carter? and sort of she sort of saves the planet and becomes a revered figure and it changes Martian society and it also sparks a war that’s still going on when John Carter gets there. And then Tarzan shows up in the third one and Drac and Vampirella shows up in the fourth one.
Emily Edwards (01:41:20.817)
Why not?
David Avallone (01:41:24.713)
all living now slightly different lines because this first domino got pushed over initially and after that is the the adaptation of the gutting of cuff and all which is red son noir two which is called the plunder and the princess and the thing I’m most excited about is and I don’t have a drop date for it yet but we’re about
Emily Edwards (01:41:26.169)
Old.
David Avallone (01:41:53.277)
Two issues into making it, and it’s called Two Fisted Fairy Tales, and it’s based on the true story. I am one of the main characters in it, my dad is one of the main characters in it. And the joke pitch that turns out to be pretty accurate is it’s the Princess Bride Meets Band of Brothers. when I was a little boy in the early 1970s, my dad told me.
Emily Edwards (01:41:59.35)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:42:21.317)
And boy, I wish I had asked him about this before he passed away, why he did this this way. He told me all of the fairy tales, the grim fairy tales, the mother youth’s fairy tales, as World War Two combat stories involving himself.
Emily Edwards (01:42:24.281)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:42:32.145)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:42:36.881)
Fascinating.
David Avallone (01:42:37.797)
So the first time I heard Little Red Riding Hood, which is the first issue of the comic, Little Red was delivering secret plans for the French resistance to her grandmother. The wolf was a Nazi SS major. And you know how at the end of the story the woodsman comes in and saves Little Red Riding Hood. it’s my dad, speaking of Thompsons, it’s my dad kicking down the door with a Thompson submachine gun and saving her from the wolf. and then I d to
Emily Edwards (01:42:40.945)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:42:51.697)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:42:56.986)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:43:06.497)
I that’s phenomenal.
David Avallone (01:43:07.453)
Thank you. Two fisted fairy tales. And to do something slightly different than what Dad did because it’s a comic book, instead of them being all standalone stories, I have connected them with a narrative thread. And the narrative thread is at the end of the first issue, Little Red says to you know, eleven year old girl says to squad of American reconnaissance GIs, now you’re gonna go help me rescue my grandmother from the Gestapo.
Emily Edwards (01:43:19.814)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:43:37.106)
And they’re like, I don’t know, man. Like, we don’t take orders from eleven years old. Here’s old. And there’s a chain of command. There’s a whole thing we can’t do. And she points at the tire tracks and goes, You’re here to f you’re out here looking for Germans, right? There are some Germans. Let us go find them. so the the crew of my dad’s little armored car tank take an eleven year old girl with them and go romping around the black forest, running into the three little pigs and
Emily Edwards (01:43:42.458)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:43:53.958)
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:44:06.461)
and the ba and the the the family of bears and goldilocks and snow white and sleeping beauty and all of that. And you know it’s it’s worth mentioning that my dad did not tell it, you know, when you when people tell fairy tales to their children, they do it in sort of a faux oldy oldie old timey English, you know, once upon a time in a faraway land. You know, my dad told it in his usual narrative voice.
Emily Edwards (01:44:07.224)
my god.
Emily Edwards (01:44:15.729)
Can’t wait for this.
Emily Edwards (01:44:27.749)
Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:44:35.357)
So it’s not once upon a time in a far away land. It’s must have been about late August in western Belgium. We’re going through the Black Forest and you know, came upon this this crazy house and I a few years ago I did a pilot for want of a better word, an eight page story where I did Hansel and Gretel. that opens with the tank finding the gingerbread house in the middle of the woods. Guys go in and they meet.
Emily Edwards (01:44:35.448)
vernacular.
Emily Edwards (01:44:59.003)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:45:03.631)
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:45:05.329)
you know, the witch and she tries to overpower them and eat them and my wife wrote the most horrific joke I will ever put in any of these. Because it was a connection that I had not made. And she was reading the story and she said, I kind of feel like an American soldier in nineteen forty four in Western Europe seeing a German woman about to slide two children into an oven.
Would have something to say about his experience with Germans and children and ovens. So he opens the he opens the kitchen door and she’s doing it. And he says, What is it? What is it with you people and putting children in ovens? Jesus Christ. and that’s some dark shit, but it’s
Emily Edwards (01:45:35.92)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:45:41.444)
Yes.
Emily Edwards (01:45:47.109)
Dumping.
David Avallone (01:46:02.928)
It’s a to me, it’s a perfect extrapolation of an American soldier in nineteen forty-four seeing a German person putting children in ovens. Would go like, Enough with the children in ovens already. What is wrong with you psychos? You know. But anyway, but anyway, two fitted fairy tales, art by Dave Acosta, like I said, we’re about halfway through the middle of issue two.
Emily Edwards (01:46:10.883)
D do
Emily Edwards (01:46:26.577)
Amazing.
David Avallone (01:46:28.327)
And I have to say that there’s a thing about the art style that we decided on that I’m so in love with. I’ll send you some samples just so we can see it. Where because it’s supposed to be it’s got a f like the like the Princess Bride, it’s got a framing device of little boy being told bedtime stories by his dad. And I’m proud of the entree to the story, which is little boy sees monster in the corner of his room, calls his parents to turn the light on, they go see it wasn’t really a monster.
Emily Edwards (01:46:41.733)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David Avallone (01:46:56.017)
And the mom goes off to bed and the kid asks the dad, Daddy, have you ever seen a monster? And he’s talking to a World War II veteran. And the World War II veteran goes, You know, I have. I have. I spent 1944 and 1945 chasing monsters across Northern Europe in an armored car with my squad of four guys. You want to hear about it? And then he he fashions that real material into
Emily Edwards (01:47:01.787)
Mm.
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:47:10.468)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:47:15.919)
Yeah.
How was it up?
Yeah. You’re old enough to hear about it now. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:47:24.973)
into into that but but yeah the the art style we decided that the the the the real elements are standard semi photo realistic comic book art but the creatures the animals that talk look like Warner Brothers cartoons because that’s what a six as a six year old what do I think the big bad wolf looks like what do I the three little pigs are porky pig type
Emily Edwards (01:47:44.784)
Mm-hmm.
That
Emily Edwards (01:47:54.171)
Look like porky. Yeah. Yeah.
David Avallone (01:47:54.353)
Little pigs. The wolf is a b is got a big crazy cartoon nose and crazy fangs and but he’s in a
Emily Edwards (01:48:00.507)
Enough to not get sued. But that aesthetic, yeah. I love it.
David Avallone (01:48:03.301)
Yeah, but he’s in a he’s in a Gestapo officer’s uniform. and that that aesthetic continues throughout. That the the monsters are all just a little cartoony or extremely cartoony. there’s one panel that he sent me on a page recently, and it’s one of those wolves sitting in the turret of a perfectly well-drawn German tiger tank, and it’s just such a cognitive dissonance. The tank is very real and the monster is very unreal.
Emily Edwards (01:48:29.723)
Yeah.
David Avallone (01:48:33.571)
And that’s the aesthetic of the series. But anyway, that is that is the thing I’m most excited about and that’ll probably be out before the end of the year.
Emily Edwards (01:48:42.918)
Awesome. I will have I will send pre-order links to everybody as soon as they’re available because that sounds absolutely phenomenal. So I’m going to hit stop record and some stuff’s gonna
David Avallone (01:48:46.599)
Thank you.
Thank you.
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