The incomparable Keith Roysdon joins host Emily J. Edwards after his episode on ZODIAC to discuss another film classic: Alfred Hitchcock’s 1954 thriller, REAR WINDOW. We get into the dog days of summer and discussing the impact of this brilliant film, between Jeff’s (played by Jimmy Stewart) reliance on being a man behind the camera, Lisa’s (played by Grace Kelly) truly adventurous spirit, and Stella’s (played by Thelma Ritter) incredible work as the audience stand-in. New York City was a very different place in 1954, and we get into how the vertical “town” of NYC apartment complexes replace the cozy nature of small towns, the politics of fashion and clothing, and what Robert Moses did to ruin the community of NYC.
Find Keith Online!
https://bsky.app/profile/keithroysdon.bsky.social
Chapters
- 00:00 Introduction
- 01:11 The Magic of the Internet and Movie Memories
- 03:36 The Opulence of Old Movie Houses
- 05:09 Fashion, Joy, and Celebration
- 08:32 Hitchcock’s Use of Color and Character Analysis
- 13:07 Thelma Ritter and the Nation of Peeping Toms
- 17:46 Urban vs. Rural Life and Political Reflections
- 25:13 Feminization and Cozy Mystery Analysis
- 26:27 Exploring Gender and Disability
- 27:51 Gender Presentation and Disability in 1954
- 28:52 The Role of Surveillance and Enjoyment
- 30:28 Gender Roles and Media Jobs
- 34:07 The Facade of Hypermasculinity
- 36:13 Jealousy and Frustration
- 37:26 Social Dynamics and Class Stratification
- 45:27 Ethnic Representation and Character Names
- 50:59 Raymond Burr’s Transformation
- 51:46 Exploring Physicality in Film
- 52:56 Community and Urban Life
- 58:14 The Role of Tools in Journalism
- 01:02:25 Marriage and Gender Dynamics
- 01:06:34 Family Migration and Ghost Show
Transcript:
Emily Edwards (she/her): Greetings, gumshoes, and welcome back to another episode of Silver Screen Sleuths. I am your host, Emily Edwards, mystery author, podcaster, and hopefully friend to all. But I know I am a friend to my guest Keith Roysden, how the hell are you doing?
Keith Roysdon
I’m doing okay. Other than wondering if my wifi is gonna flake out on me, I’m just absolutely fine.
Emily Edwards (she/her): It’s fine. I have had multiple guests with Wi Fi Flake Out, and if anybody could tell, they’ve at least been polite enough not to say anything nasty in comments. So we are we are golden.
Keith Roysdon
you didn’t see my comments. Okay, fairwell.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Through the through the magic of the internet, Keith and I talk like every single day, all day, every day. And and like even though this is the second time I’m only like really hearing your voice because you’re doing the show for a second time. I’m like, You’re this mu buddy. We’re just gonna like rap out about stuff for an hour.
Keith Roysdon
I should have adopted some strange accent or something.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Just you show up with a monocle and twirling a mustache.
Keith Roysdon
Absolutely.
Emily Edwards (she/her): It was so funny. the last time we did a show, you were my guest. You were the first guest I ever recorded with, but I saved you to the third episode because we were talking about Zodiac, the absolutely phenomenal David Fenture movie that really focuses a lot on journalism and investigative journalism. And we’re kind of doing another investigative journalism movie today, which is Alfred Hitchcock’s 1954 classic rear window. And I thrust this one on you. I was like, we’re doing this, just so you know. And you were kind enough to agree. So I appreciate that immensely.
Keith Roysdon
I was just so happy to. I was and you know, this weirdly has a little bit of a tie-in also because I saw this movie along with several other Hitchcocks in a theater, a historic theater, one built, I think, opened in nineteen twenty nine in downtown Muncie, Indiana. And in the nineteen eighties, after some copyright or or something, some kind of agreement was reached. Universal released a bunch of Hitchcock films to theaters. So I mean that’s followed by several years when Gone of the Wind was re released to theaters. So in the eighties, Rear Window and Vertigo and a few others were released by Universal. And I it was during a period I was reviewing movies. So I was reviewing 30 to 40 year old movies just like they were brand new. I didn’t try to make anybody think they’re brand new or people, but they does this guy think we can’t see this on TV or we haven’t seen because it was kind of it wasn’t really at the dawn of video cassettes, but it was pretty early on. Not everybody had video. So it was at the time, I mean, aside from the fact the movies were a treat, it was at the time a treat to go to especially in an historic theater and see the these re releases. So that that that’s it’s a very special thing for me and it does strangely have a journalism tie-in for me.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, I mean, those old theaters must be so gorgeous. We had one in the town where I grew up, and I don’t think it showed a lot of movies. I went to a lot of concerts and like shows there when I was a kid, and I didn’t really get to experience like old theaters until I went to college, and there were just so many in Boston. My college owned a couple of them and they did a lot of live theater there. But there’s really nothing better than sitting in an Opulent old movie house watching a movie that was made, you know, pre-1970s. These sort of just like the technicolor colors, the the makeup that you can see, the sweatiness, the costumes, the lighting. This movie must be incredible on a big screen. And I’ve never seen it on one.
Keith Roysdon
It was really beautiful. I mean, partly it’s so gorgeous because that the the courtyard set with the back of the building visible to the Jimmy Stewart character, and of course, how vivid the the colors are outside the apartment and inside the courtesy of the gowns that my goodness, what’s her name? Grace Kelly
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. Grace Kelly, yeah.
Keith Roysdon
wore. I just had Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I know. I always have IMDB and like Wikipedia pulled up so I like I don’t space out too badly. But sometimes the other day when I was recording with Ellen Byron, I was like, I need to look this up and I got the year the movie came out wrong. I got I was just like, whatever, we’re winging it.
Keith Roysdon
Absolutely. Yeah, that happens once in a while to me too.
Emily Edwards (she/her): But but this movie, like just to touch on the costuming for a second, like this movie was the way that Dior’s post-war use of fabric was really introduced to the Americas. And so, if you know anything about fashion, you know this to be true. Edith Head basically took A 1950s look from Christian Dior that was in all the magazines and put it on Grace Kelly. And there’s never been a more perfect person to put the new look on because she was just so elegant. So when she walks in in that huge white skirt and the and the black jacket, that was a a near stitch-for-stitch recreation of a Christian Dior look called the New Look. And it was supposed to be a celebration that wartime rationing was over. You can use 30, 50 yards of fabric and of tool in order to make this humongous skirt, you know. And it was supposed to be a really artful but also gleeful joy of consumerism. And so you’re like, I didn’t know that.
Keith Roysdon
That that that makes total sense because when I wrote a book set in nineteen forty eight, one of the things that I wanted to show there was that well it’s in a short story also, but that people were so ready to have a good time. Now the stark reminder that remains of soldiers were still This long after World War II, we’re still coming to the United States. So there’s this really gut punch of people who are finding their sons finally delivered back to the United States. But
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
at the same time, there was so much of a feeling of we need to we need to. Like you said, we need to be joyful. We need to celebrate. It’s like we’re kind of coming out of that fallout shelter. Well, actually, they were just going into the fallout shelter. But but
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. Different era.
Keith Roysdon
because of the Cold War. But that that whole idea that we need to kind of break loose and shake off what had been a decade or decade and a half by the time of this movie, of this power that hung over. all of us not to say there’s anything equivalent to that now but
Emily Edwards (she/her): No.
Keith Roysdon
but just the idea that people wanted to see those beautiful colors you Instagram today about your Viviana Valentine book and the fact that all the dresses in that are real dresses, real outfits and
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
that the very fashionable cast of characters in in that mystery war. And I just think that’s wonderful that there is this celebratory element to a lot of these movies. Sometimes no matter in stories and novels, sometimes no matter what else was going on, there was there was something to celebrate, something to mark. And and
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
certainly this movie is like that.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I I it’s odd because we don’t think of Hitchcock as this particularly louche, sort of like debaucherous filmmaker. You know, we often think of him as someone who doesn’t like women, who may not really like fun. And but when you think about a lot of his films, and oddly, as you know, this one and Vertigo and North by Northwest are really movies that are so saturated in color. you know, Marnie is not really a yuck a minute kind of movie at all. But you know, his use of red and his use of color in so many of his movies is really very purposeful.
Keith Roysdon
Vertigo, which was almost Vertigo was almost pre psychedelic in some ways. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. Very much so. I don’t like Vertigo personally. Like I know that’s gonna put me on the outs with so many film people, but I don’t like the movie.
Keith Roysdon
It’s really my least favorite of a lot of his career. It
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes. I I love this movie in particular, even though it’s it’s a very similar almost care character for Jimmy Stewart in that, you know, we we know him either as I grew up with him as El Wood P. Dowd in Harvey, where he’s this very gentle, mild mannered, you know, polite, deferential man. We know him from it’s a wonderful life where you know he’s put upon, but then he discovers like this great love of his family and his wife and his children and his community. And then you have this movie, and comparatively Vertigo, but we’re not gonna talk about that one because we don’t like it. where he’s just a straight-up rat bastard. Like he’s just a mean, cantankerous old man in this.
Keith Roysdon
And I just want to be, and by the way, that’s something to talk about too, the age difference between two
Emily Edwards (she/her): yeah.
Keith Roysdon
lead actors. But but yeah, I just wanted to go like, dude, can you see this woman that’s standing there? How can you possibly and how can it you realistically be written as somebody who’s grumpy about Grace Kelly doing that kind of like angel coming down, lean into him? in one of the earliest scenes. It’s like,
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
what are you complaining about? You know? Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): complaining about like every time I watch it my husband like looks at me and he’s just like I have to be nice to the most gorgeous woman on the planet who wants to sleep
Keith Roysdon
Right.
Emily Edwards (she/her): with me and nothing else from me whatsoever. She
Keith Roysdon
Right.
Emily Edwards (she/her): brings me champagne no like
Keith Roysdon
I know. a whole dinner from twenty one, right? Was it from twenty one? Where it with the
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah with the busboy bringing it in.
Keith Roysdon
and I hope the busboy got a really good tip. you
Emily Edwards (she/her): I’m sure you did.
Keith Roysdon
know, for like however getting in the cab at twenty one and and bringing over this dinner which was like was it lobster or s it’s something? So yeah,
Emily Edwards (she/her): It’s lobster and champagne.
Keith Roysdon
you know, sure. Like I see like I said. yeah, and she noted she included cab fare when she
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes.
Keith Roysdon
gave it. the the money. So boy, I
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
hope he got a nice tip.
Emily Edwards (she/her): my God. And and I think, yeah, it’s really hard to like Jimmy Stewart’s character in this. And I don’t expect every character to be likable. I don’t expect me, you know, to like be like, everybody’s a good person. but admittedly, Hitch did not set him up for success when he is his, you know, he’s just so bitter about Grace Kelly. Coming into his life and treating him to sumptuous things that all he has to do is say thank you, you know, like
Keith Roysdon
I I would not second guess James Stewart’s performance or his take on a character or something like that. And I it’s been a long time since I’ve read a lot about the movie, so I don’t know how much of that was in the script or how much
Emily Edwards (she/her): I’m sure most of it.
Keith Roysdon
of that was how much of that was Hitchcock’s direction or whatever.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
But the idea that he is so grumpy and he’s so caustic. And there were times I was just like, she should just slap him and leave. You know, and she does kind
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, exactly.
Keith Roysdon
of she does kind of exit a couple of times. So
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
I think certainly, you know, a a dramatic door slamming exit would have been appropriate. So those maybe that would have gotten to Robcom or sitcom or romcom
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
sitcom or both. But my god. Yeah. I
Emily Edwards (she/her): I love the fact that this movie does set him up with a bridge though, in what I think possibly the greatest character actress of all time of Thelma Ritter, who is she steals every scene she’s ever in in every movie ever. Like I love her so much.
Keith Roysdon
And she has all the best lines in this movie. And they’re usually this reminded me a little bit of the movie Sha the Hitchcock movie, Shadow Shadow of a Doubt, with Ter you have not? I thought I thought you had seen
Emily Edwards (she/her): I love it. It’s one of my favorite Hitchcock movies ever made.
Keith Roysdon
it. You hadn’t seen it. Yeah, it’s I love it. It’s it’s so wonderful. But there’s a little bit to her pronouncements and the way she says things that are that highlights the gruesomeness Of of everything, you know, is and Grace Kelly’s characters, Lisa is kind of blanching a couple of times with some of the things that that are said. But it reminded me a little bit of the like the true crime fans, the dad and the next door neighbor played by Hume Cronin and Shadow of a Doubt, you know, who this is are like this absorbed discussion of the best way to kill someone, you know, and and it also made me think. a little bit of boy writer’s talk. You know, the the
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm.
Keith Roysdon
idea that, you know, people talk about, my God, I hope nobody ever sees my search engines history, because of all the things, you know, what’s what’s the best way if Lars Thorwald had had Google, you know, the best way to dismember your wife and take her out in in cases, or something like that. That would have been a dead giveaway, so to speak. But but yeah, but
Emily Edwards (she/her): Exactly.
Keith Roysdon
but Thelma Ritter just A wonderful actress and has all the lines. I made notes of a couple of them, but yeah, the other thing, do you mind I’ll say this? She
Emily Edwards (she/her): Go for it.
Keith Roysdon
defines the story, Thelma Ritter’s character defines because she says, We become a nation of peeping toms. And and and that’s been never more true. than it is today in the sense of
Emily Edwards (she/her): So glad you brought this up.
Keith Roysdon
all the things that you can see on TikTok and Instagram and the the outpouring of things that you really probably should never want to see on
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm.
Keith Roysdon
on Instagram. I just like horrifying things. And Thelma Ritter’s character, tell me the character’s name, I forget. But I don’t remember.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I don’t remember off the top of my head. no.
Keith Roysdon
I I came well prepared for this, you can tell, because I can’t remember Grace
Emily Edwards (she/her): Me too.
Keith Roysdon
Kelly’s name and I can’t remember Thomas Ritter’s character’s name. But the the
Emily Edwards (she/her): Is it Selma?
Keith Roysdon
it really reflects the the kind of the dual mojo of this movie in that it’s pretty obviously always about voyeurism and you know watching people and things like that, but The the idea of of that, the logical extension to that, is the idea of seeing and how we see people. And I mean, really that set with a courtyard and the view into all those all those apartments just could not have demonstrated the idea of of seeing and how we take information in and how we take pictures in.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
Could not I mean it was just brilliant.
Emily Edwards (she/her): It’s an absolutely stunning piece of set work. And I think one of the most interesting aspects of it is the fact that Jeff or you know, Jimmy Stewart’s character never assumes that someone is watching him. He always assumes that he is the only active watcher. And I think that’s so interesting. You know, it’s something that I was thinking about and ruminating over while, you know, thinking about this movie in advance of our conversation, because it is, it’s so. You know, she says we’re we’re becoming a nation of peeping toms. And it’s so funny because there is a belief amongst you know, the great political divide of America that rurality is safe and that urbanism is, you know, is inherently dangerous. Because if you’re around people, and this goes back to the Puritans, like truthfully, like when the Puritans first moved to Massachusetts, and I’m gonna yammer for a second. There was a true
Keith Roysdon
Go come ahead.
Emily Edwards (she/her): belief amongst the settlers of Massachusetts, and specifically the English Puritans, that the sin of the city was something that they had to escape, but also that nature was inherently devilish and ruled by Satan. And so it’s really embedded in American society that the only safe place to live is essentially suburbia, that liminal space in between. Urbanity and rurality. And the Go ahead. Sorry.
Keith Roysdon
I’m just gonna say, and of course, we see that reflected in politics now, in that
Emily Edwards (she/her): completely.
Keith Roysdon
the the suburban life, those voters are highly desired, but the for at least one party, the the central the population concentration areas are vital to them and who they are most likely to appeal to. And then you have the other party that You know, I love when people show those maps and and look look at how much red is here and how much blue is here. And people are like, Well, land doesn’t vote. So, you know, that’s that’s
Emily Edwards (she/her): Exactly.
Keith Roysdon
one thing. But but there’s this kind of these noble people of such and such land or something like that. There we we want to appeal to them and my god, you know, we can talk about politics on a podcast just as much as we can talk about movies. But yeah, that that you’re absolutely right that that idea that one is better than the other and we can see that reflection in how movies treat city life and how they treat rural life
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm.
Keith Roysdon
and and eventually probably beginning by the time this movie came out how they treat suburban life because suburban
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
life kind of you know the what was it Live Town New York the first
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yep.
Keith Roysdon
the first how track tracked housing
Emily Edwards (she/her): The planned communities, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
neighborhoods, cul de sacs, all that kind of stuff. So
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
so we were seeing at about this time a lot of the the the formation of those good, bad and and horrible kind of labels that and you can take it both ways, you know, some parties
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly.
Keith Roysdon
would say the horrible are the people who have gun racks in their pickups. And the other parties like are the horrible are the ones who like take a bus to to work. So it’s horrifying. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Exactly. Exactly. Who have to pass their neighbors in a hallway. no. Like, yeah. No, it’s funny because my this was this movie came out in nineteen fifty-four. So around the time that my parents were born. And my parents were born in New York City. They lived in apartments. my dad, I think, was in Brooklyn and my mom was in Queens. So very similar to this, not in Manhattan. And then they both, you know, this is the peak time of white flight of how Robert Moses was specifically engineering New York City to urge and essentially force well enough white people out of the city into the suburbs. My parents’ families then moved to Long Island. That’s where I was born. And so like the engineering of Robert Moses and his evil little minions to make New York City inhosp as inhospitable as possible and to really make it almost like an escape from New York style like island separated from the good and I’m air quoting this just in case you’re not watching this on YouTube, the good suburbs where like well-off or upwardly mobile GIs returning from New York returning from World War II with which the GI bill was not for everybody. It was just the white people who went to war essentially got their payouts and black people and Hispanic people and and Asian people who fought in the war did not get their GI payouts. And all of this was done very, very purposeful. And I really love the fact that this movie really captures what we imagine New York City to be in the 1950s. It’s hot, it’s close, there’s people speaking tons of different languages, it’s people from all different sorts of backgrounds. Almost everyone is kind of on the poor side. You know, you know, how dare you have probably college-educated Lisa working in magazines? Like, even though she’s really glamorous and she’s Grace Kelly, there’s still an aspect of seediness to her because she’s not getting married, she’s not having kids, she’s working a job, and she’s working a job that only deals with women’s pleasure, with like. buying things and spending money and things that are very corporeal and sinful and are still seen as very corporeal and sinful. And this movie just sits in it and it just loves it because Jeffrey because Jeffreys is sitting in it and he’s surrounded by all of these people. And I can’t tell if he likes it or not.
Keith Roysdon
Well, I I had to mention this at some point. My almo well, this movie is full of favorite moments for me, but one of my favorite moments, he’s like crouchy and grumpy and just like a obnoxious jerk through so much of the movie when it’s directed toward her. But when she really embraces The murder conspiracy idea and starts talking about it very excitedly. Hitchhack does a shot of Jimmy Seward’s face, and he’s got this this look in his eyes, and he’s beginning to smile and everything. It’s like, man, there’s no point, and and we’re talking about Grace Kelly, keep in mind, there’s no point he’s more happy to be dating this woman. Than when she’s embracing the idea of this guy cutting his wife up. You know, so what a strange,
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes, exactly.
Keith Roysdon
what a strange thing for but perfect. my gosh, so perfect. But
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
the the shot of Stuart just like beaming with delight when she’s like excitedly telling this.
Emily Edwards (she/her): He had a handsaw in a suitcase. Like it’s disgusting.
Keith Roysdon
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): one of the things that we talk about a lot with Hitchcock is with the joke amongst especially people who write mysteries, is that like he doesn’t like women at all. And and I’m wondering, then this movie is really interesting because Jeff is so frustrated. And I’m gonna spitball at you for a second. He’s so frustrated because he’s in a really feminized position. And so I often talk about how rear window is actually a cozy mystery. Because when you think of Miss Marple and she’s in Saint Mary Mead, what she is is she’s a little old lady that sees everything in the tiny community that surrounds her. And that is the essence of a cozy mystery.
Keith Roysdon
It absolutely absolutely is.
Emily Edwards (she/her): And that’s so evident on screen here. And here you have relative prime of his life, because prime of his life lasted a lot longer for male movie stars in the nineteen fifties, Jimmy Stewart, in a really feminized position. And he is furious about it.
Keith Roysdon
That’s really good that’s very good analysis. I like that. I hadn’t thought about that. I get so hung up on the you know, the the I’ve I’m this gruff guy who can go anywhere and I may have to sleep in the same clothes for for two weeks and and all this stuff and and and I and he’s you’re right, he’s probably objecting to how weak he is. Not to say feminized, but of of the mode of the day, yes, somebody would call that feminized, being weaker, not being
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
able to get up and take pictures of a of a race you know, where tires are slime
Emily Edwards (she/her): Car race, yeah.
Keith Roysdon
for him and stuff like that. But yeah, that’s that’s great analysis. I really like it.
Emily Edwards (she/her): And I really wonder if we say that Hitchcock hated women because we just didn’t have, he didn’t have the framework to be like gender critical in 1954. Not only was he born in like the 1800s and living in the time and living in, you know, and he’s British, and that certainly adds a different complexity that a lot of American culture necessarily didn’t have. But he I don’t know if Hitchcock had the framework to be as Critical about gender presentation as I mean, I know he didn’t have the same, you know, framework to be as critical about gender presentation as we do now. And this movie really brings it front and center for me because Jeff is so mad about being, you know, unable. You know, he he’s he’s broken, he’s it hate to use the word impotent, but like he’s just.
Keith Roysdon
About this being disabled. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it it is another story of disability, which again, a lot of people coming back from the war are experiencing still in the nineteen fifties. You might have someone who is sent to war at eighteen and you know, in in the in the forties, and he comes back and by nineteen fifty-four, he’s a 25-year-old man who might be missing a leg or missing an arm or being unable to see. And this movie does so Much with disability and that and that frustration in a really empowering sense, but it requires him to do something that again is very feminized, which is snooping. You know, he he it it’s considered the little old lady sin. Like you invite your mother-in-law over and she starts rifling through your medicine cabinets. And that’s kind of what he has to do in order to. you know, because he’s stationary and because he’s stuck. It’s so ooh.
Keith Roysdon
And the snooping was so central to that character, and I mean the seeing is so central to that character that even after they completely believed that a murder had taken place, that s Jeff, the character, is still watching people in the windows and smiling. I mean, here’s the setup that let them see what was probably a murder scene. And he’s still smiling when the newlywed guy has gone to the window to get a break from the voracious you know,
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
wife. And she calls him back, you know, and says Steve or whatever, come back. Or sh I don’t even know if she says come back, but it’s so she calls his name. So he pulls the shade back down and you
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
can imagine what she’s calling him for. But the Jeff character smiles after that. They’re already well onto the trail of this killer. And there’s at least one other i incident when when he’s still plainly just enjoying this big context that has allowed them to see this horrific thing. And you know, by the end by the time you know the dog And everything like that. You know, nobody’s enjoying it. Nobody is smiling by that point. But I always thought that was fascinating. That the couple of times that probably says something about me, it probably says something about the way that character is written or the way Hitchcock directed. But the times when he is seems to be enjoying himself is when she’s into the conspiracy and when he’s it’s like basking in the conspiracy enough that he’s enjoying all the input, you know, all the
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
all the other intrigues and things like that. So
Emily Edwards (she/her): It’s really, it’s really fascinating because, you know, he both he and Lisa have have media jobs. And so he, you know, but he considers his serious because he has to go off and shoot for Life magazine or Time Magazine or whatever. I’m sure it was life at the time. And she just has the frivolous job of talking about shopping. And it’s really interesting when you think about how. Women’s magazines were used up until up until probably the early 2000s when social media kind of took over publishing and it was user-generated or bottom-up instead of top-down. And you know, we touched this a little bit earlier where it’s like she is he thinks she’s so helpless and so shallow and so uneducated to the way of the world. And she has employed him. She’s The reason why he’s had checks. And I think there’s a real misunderstanding that of the power that she has and the things that she’s capable of. And it in I think that’s the most that’s really the most sexist thing at play is that he really does not understand that she is a very capable woman in her own cutthroat world who is capable of doing of scaling a fire escape and four-inch stilettos. You know, in order to
Keith Roysdon
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): like tackle a freaking murderer.
Keith Roysdon
And they probably did this intentionally, but you know, in the opening scene when they pan over his various his war photos that he took that are framed on the wall and everything, and you and correct me if I’m wrong, you the camera pans down to the pile of magazines, which are probably supposed to be life or look.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
And then you see his work on the cover of one of those, and it’s a fashion shoot or something like that. I mean, it’s not
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
from some war torn country. That he did that made the cover. And pa I’m sure he was on the cover of more than one. I don’t talk about the character the you know, the LB Jeffries character. But but at the same time it’s like as much as he poo poos everything she does, I mean he’s on the cover of a national magazine for for the the I can’t even remember what the caption said, but it’s a stark image of a woman’s face of like a model or something like that. I think, maybe. But
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, it’s supposed to be her. It’s supposed to be a photo of her. And I think that’s how we assume that they’ve met, where it’s just like, this is Yeah. Yeah. And so like
Keith Roysdon
see, I I missed that. Okay. Yeah. But it’s but it was very much a glamour kind of thing. So he can be as macho as he wants about what’s up on the wall, including, you know, the tire flying at him that, you know, that disabled him. But I mean really he’s known in that world as well as in the the the world of of you know gritty war photography or
Emily Edwards (she/her): Exactly.
Keith Roysdon
something like that.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Cause you and I joke a lot about grit and how it’s a very it’s such a mechanism, it’s such a facade that a lot of people really feel compelled to put on in a very in in mystery fiction. sometimes very necessary and sometimes it can feel a little bit suffocating to have this this. Mask of hypermasculinity. And I feel like we’re supposed to, or at least I always got the impression, that while Jeff is a very capable photographer and he enjoys his work, there is a certain element of like the lady doth protest too much when it comes to what is worthwhile of his attention and worthwhile of of his his camera being pointed at it. I don’t know if you got the same sort of feeling or if that’s just me.
Keith Roysdon
yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And and I think that when you when you bring in the the plot point that that’s really all he can do right now is aim the camera, sometimes with a long lens, the idea that that’s what he’s reduced to right now. And as the movie opens, he’s been in an apartment for six weeks, he’s a week away from getting a cast off. But the idea that he is nothing but that now, for and has been for a while. And it’s it’s I guess kind of good motivation for how damn grumpy he is all the time. But but the idea that that that he’s he’s reduced to much less than he would like to be
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
because of his injury.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
And then of course we have even more of that at the end. So scott spoilers
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
for a movie from how many years ago? Si seventy seventy two seventy years ago.
Emily Edwards (she/her): That’s older than my parents. Exactly. no, we’re I’m gonna circle back to that in a little bit because I think you know, one of the things that he is so clear about is that he’s jealous and angry of the people who he can see who have a more vibrant life than he does. And again, it’s six weeks, it’s not the end of the fucking universe. You know what I mean? Like it’s you got a broken leg. Deal with it, you know.
Keith Roysdon
No, you know, that totally makes me think of the age of COVID when people on social media before that were saying, you know, could you could you stay in one cabin for a month for a million dollars and somebody’s not mine unfortunately, I wish I had said it. Somebody’s sarcastic rejoinder was you couldn’t stay in for six weeks to save your grandma.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
You know, so and anybody can do six weeks or ultimately seven if he hadn’t had another mishap. But yeah, absolutely. That that is absolutely the case.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Exactly. Yeah. You know, he he’s so mad at at the composer the you know the the Broadway composer who’s having cocktail parties, he Hates Miss Torso, like the dancer that lives across the way from him, who he watches do her stretches and her kicks and stuff like that, which must have been so salacious in 1954, like her just dancing around in that little bikini, like God bless. And he hates her. And he kind of really hates the newlyweds too, a little bit, because like as much as they tickle him, he’s like, but I don’t have that. And he’s just so mad at them. And I think it’s a really good juxtaposition for how. Connected he is with Miss Lonely Hearts. you know, the woman across the way who, you know, can’t get catch date to save her life. And he really feels a kinship with this woman, which is weird again, because he has Grace Kelly in his apartment all the time.
Keith Roysdon
yeah. The idea of of Miss Torso, by the way, I’ve got to mention one of the things I noticed this time that I really hadn’t mentioned all that often before is his friend Doyle, the cop,
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
who was in there a couple of times. At some point, Doyle is, unless I’m mistaken about where he’s looking, Doyle is looking out the window, and he then becomes the voyeur, the the person
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
seen, because he’s fascinated by Miss Torso. I mean really who would who would not be? But he’s riveted to Mr. Merceau and he kind of bra bra pulls himself away when they’re continuing a conversation. But then later, Doyle his eyes kind of s his gaze kind of sweeps over the nightgown and all that that that Lisa brought. And
Emily Edwards (she/her): huh.
Keith Roysdon
he ca he turns and has a smirk or says something sarcastic or something. But Doyle, you’re just as big a pervert as any of us. You might as well admit it, you know.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. I know. I love the way that the, you know, they treat cops in this because again, cops are men of action in this and know, you know, they’re they’re gonna go dredge the river, they’re gonna go chase down a guy, they’re gonna do something. And it it’s interesting because Jeff is kind of like proto-beatnik, where he’s just kind of like, I don’t trust authority, I’m living on the edge of the world. You know, the 1950s was the start of that. Where he’s like, I’m gonna live on the edge. I’m going to be counterculture. And you can tell that he’s he he wrinkles a little bit at having a friend who’s a cop. He’s like, I don’t like necessarily that I have this relationship with the law, but like a lot of white people were like, but aha, we need to call the police because the police will solve everything. Like it’s a it’s a again, a fairly forward thinking. thing that happens in this movie that came out in nineteen fifty four.
Keith Roysdon
Did you notice, by the way, when he when he calls Doyle’s house and Doyle and the wife are out somewhere, and there’s a housekeeper who answers
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
the phone, and she the her her voice sounds very much like she is a black housekeeper. And I’m thinking, okay, that’s is that is she the only, I mean you can’t even see her, but is she
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
the only person of color? Maybe I’m wrong.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I I think so.
Keith Roysdon
in the movie. I don’t know if any of the neighbors are, but that also
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
this is a cop and he can afford a housekeeper who apparently is live in because she that I mean I don’t know whether they have kids or not, but she’s there in the evening or something like that. So I mean really, you’re talking about poor people or struggling people who were as far as the eye can see from his window. But the idea that it the the movie in some ways further stratifies the the people that that it depicts
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
in such that even a cop has got a housekeeper. You
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
know, I I literally pictured that lady standing in a foyer answering the phone, you know, when he called. Not to say I was
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
so distracted, I wasn’t paying attention, but I was like, that’s very interesting. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. That cop has a house. You know what I mean? Like there are there are different boroughs. It’s obviously not in Manhattan are you gonna have a house, but like different boroughs you have standalone homes or at least duplexes and stuff like that. And like that cop definitely has a house. And I’m going through the cast and n I believe that implied black housekeeper is the only person of color. the the Composer, the guy who who has the big party, is played by an actor named Ross Bagdesarian. So I assume he’s probably Armenian.
Keith Roysdon
is that the yeah, is is he the
Emily Edwards (she/her): The songwriter.
Keith Roysdon
creator of Alvin and the Chipmunks?
Emily Edwards (she/her): I think he was. That’s amazing.
Keith Roysdon
Yeah, I think so.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yep, he was. Ross Bagdasarian was the creator of the freaking chipmunks.
Keith Roysdon
I have like such a depository. I have such a depository of useless information up here
Emily Edwards (she/her): That’s amazing.
Keith Roysdon
that
Emily Edwards (she/her): my God. No, no, I’m not just like I’m completely overtaken by his IMDB background because yeah, no, Alvin and the chipmunks
Keith Roysdon
Sorry.
Emily Edwards (she/her): is is that guy. my God. That’s amazing.
Keith Roysdon
Here’s where you here’s where you lay in a little bit of the Alvin and Chipmunks Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, whatever it is the
Emily Edwards (she/her): If I didn’t have to pay for it, I would. Do do do do do do do do do
Keith Roysdon
And there’s not a there’s not a single person watching this who’s gonna be happy that you actually did a little bit of that tune because they’re gonna it’s gonna be in their brain. So they’re just gonna go
Emily Edwards (she/her): It’s It’s gonna be in their brains.
Keith Roysdon
away mad from from this whole experience. Which is, you know, the way you hope that a a a podcast about entertainment is is gonna leave people angry. You know, they have the Alvin Ed Shitlock Christmas song stuck in their head.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Exactly. Now you’re gonna think about Exactly. Or like the Alvin and the Chipmunks version of Witch Doctor, which like I
Keith Roysdon
god. Yeah. my God. my God.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Sorry. Just speed it up.
Keith Roysdon
I’m gonna like when we get done, I’m gonna like go turn on MTV Classic and hope that one of the eighties shows is on so that I can
Emily Edwards (she/her): Exactly.
Keith Roysdon
kinda d come on Aileen or something is and get the the the Alvin
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes, scrum the brain.
Keith Roysdon
and Chipmunk songs out of my head.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Who would have ever thought that we were talking about one of Hitchcock’s most famous and well regarded movies and we go down a Alvin and the Chipmunks rabbit hole?
Keith Roysdon
Well, you gotta you gotta list that among the things that we cover in this because we cover it more thoroughly than some of the aspects of the film, you know.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I know. Well I guess let’s go to so wife disappears, you know, everybody’s sweating, everybody’s miserable, you know, the the songwriter can’t write a song. Miss Lonely Hearts is gonna take her life because she can’t catch a date. Miss Torso Looks happy, but we know she’s miserable by the end of the movie because her boyfriend was off at war and he’s just now coming back. The only people who might even be remotely having a good summer are the newlyweds, and they’re off to the left. We don’t pay that much attention to them. And then a poor woman’s dog dies, and she’s just like beyond consolable and can’t blame her, though I love the little pulley method of putting that dog down in the little basket. It’s just so fucking cute.
Keith Roysdon
I never had a dog or a cat who I would trust not to jump off. I
Emily Edwards (she/her): absolutely not.
Keith Roysdon
I know that didn’t happen to like the the puppy they get later, but yeah, I was you know me, you
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
know from talking to me all the time, I worry about cats and dogs and things like that. Unreasonably
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
so, maybe unreasonably so. But yeah, I was I was like, god, it would be a whole other if they had to transport a
Emily Edwards (she/her): my idiots would just jump right out.
Keith Roysdon
transport a dog to the emergency vat or something like that. Sing side quest. No probably.
Emily Edwards (she/her): In 1954, I don’t think they had emergency fencing. But then we have Grace Kelly being the hero that she freaking is climbing that fire escape, which is not easy to do. Those things are hostile architecture through and through. And then getting caught and roughed up by the bad guy whose name I can’t remember off the top of my head. It’s Thorwald. See, they
Keith Roysdon
Lars Thorwald. Lars Thorwald.
Emily Edwards (she/her): They play so much with white people. They, they, they dabble in the entire palette of whiteness, which I really, really like in this movie. So you have Thelma Ritter, who’s like working class Irish. You have pure wasp beauty, you know, Grace Kelly in this. You have implied Italians everywhere. You know, you have the the Armanian guy. Im
Keith Roysdon
That was my b I had a band name, that was band name, implied Italian.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Are they Italian? It’s amazing. The what you know, they the bad guy, which normally in movies like this, it’s gonna be some swarthy man with like dark skin, you know, that’s probably shoe polish and and you know, like hair that’s slicked. And it’s always Cesar Romero, you know what I mean? It from the thin man, where he’s just like, I am ambiguously ethnic and therefore bad. But they have la they give the character, the name, which they didn’t have to do, of Lars Thorwalt. And you’re just like man, well I can’t tell what you’re trying to say here, but I like it. I like it a lot.
Keith Roysdon
And and was there a Lars, was Lars the author of the book a Lars something that not Lars Star Wolf, the author of the book Cantichi. Do you know Conti? So it was a Lars
Emily Edwards (she/her): I think you’re right Yes.
Keith Roysdon
something. So there are so few Lars. They did a good job with making a name that stuck in my head because in entertainment wise The only other Lars that I remember was the never seen husband of the Cloris Leechman character from the Mary Tyler Moore show. Was
Emily Edwards (she/her): My god.
Keith Roysdon
I told you, it’s it’s just like it’s like a vast wasteland of junk up here. But it’s useful junk, you know, as as
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes.
Keith Roysdon
I always say, you know, my my depth of knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep. You know, so I remember. I remember the various Lars in entertainment for God knows what reason. So
Emily Edwards (she/her): The guy who wrote Kantiki was Thor Hieredhal. So exactly. Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
that’s why I was thinking Thor Lars Lars what was his name? Lars Thorwald, yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I I feel like it’s supposed to be like ambiguously German too, even though it’s not. It’s very clearly Swedish to anybody who knows now. But I feel like those kind of consonants were supposed to be like Izzy, you know, in 1954, where it’s just like, I don’t know. He might be one of the bad whites, you know. And I it was like, ooh, ooh, this movie is messing with so much stuff. It makes me so happy.
Keith Roysdon
And I know that Burr was better known later to come, obviously. I don’t think Perry Mason had started by that point. And I’m not sure
Emily Edwards (she/her): No, that’s true.
Keith Roysdon
I’m not sure he even played the character Steve Martin in the Americanized version of Godzilla
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
at that point. Maybe he had done neither one of those, but I don’t I don’t think so. But Burr, who who until his later years always had this jet black hair. is so memorable. He’s like a character from you know you and Libby talked about who framed Roger Abbott and
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
when I think of people who words like that’s just too strange you know like the judge in two who before even in all the reveals and things like that. But Lars Thorwald is so strange and off-putting I literally would like turn and look at him as he went past, if I passed him on that sidewalk that’s out front
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
of the building. And and I I kind of in my head and I I live in my head you know all the time. I I I always think I wanted to see somebody turn and like look after him when he walks past carrying the heavy suitcase, which then of course
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. Sample case.
Keith Roysdon
came back very light. He’s all almost like jaunty when he comes back. with a suitcase. He’s yeah, he’s he’s like swinging him a stuff. And he’s like this as he’s carrying it when it’s got his pore dismembered. What was her name w what was like Mrs. Thorwald’s name?
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mrs. Thorwald, I think is all she’s ever referred to as. Yes.
Keith Roysdon
It was it was it was his wife Thorwald was the name.
Emily Edwards (she/her): So so Perry Mason, Raymond Burr as Perry Mason started in 1957. And I remember seeing an interview with him where he always kind of played like a bad guy. He always kind of played a heavy. And that you that word very, you know, astute in that like he always played kind of a a a guy who was gonna rough you up. And then for Perry, someone gave him the advice, and this is probably terrible advice now, that like if you lost a ton of weight, you might play a leading man. And so he did. He lost a ton of weight. And he owned, you know, Perry Mason started in 57. This movie was 54. So over the course of, you know, a couple of years, he did lose a substantial amount of weight. And he started playing Perry Mason Perry Mason, which, you know, absolutely defined his career because Perry Mason is fulfills the role of a private investigator slash gentleman sleuth. Perry Mason is very wealthy in the books. He is very educated. He knows everything. And he he, you know, he’s hired on cases in order to do things. And so it’s so interesting to see him fulfill the role. Of the sort of like spe almost like Jaws from from you know 007 from James Bond, where he’s like this voiceless, menacing, large man. And then to a couple years later to really get what defines his career, which is actually like dapper, intelligent, you know, almost like Nick Charlesy levels of like ability to to sleuth. That’s such an interesting, like. switch flip. And of course that’s on television versus in film where, you know
Keith Roysdon
So Emily, I think if I’m interpreting what you’re saying right, is is your advice to would be actors is to get as skinny as possible.
Emily Edwards (she/her): No, I would never say that. I would say that in 1957. That was probably good advice. But
Keith Roysdon
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): no, it’s just, it’s just a really interesting way that we think about physicality, you know, especially in movies like this, where especially again when playing with class and physicality, because I think this movie does that so well, where you know, they are not the police sort. Whatever who owns a home, you know, they are all working class people. And I think one of the, you know, it it is moving. It’s also a little goofy at the end, but it is moving when you know the woman whose dog was killed kind of goes like, What’s the matter with all? You know, and she says kind of you people, but you know, she means all of us, where she’s like, We’re all neighbors, we watch each other. We it’s mutual voyeurism, we all know each other. You know, this is my dog. You see me take him, you know, let him out every single day. And we don’t know each other. Why do we act like strangers? And that’s like the overwhelming fear of conservative America when they look at, you know, urban neighborhoods where they’re like, everybody’s anonymous. Every you don’t know each other. You don’t help each other. And I think it’s really interesting that this movie is like, just because we don’t know each other’s names doesn’t mean that we don’t care. And that’s a really beautiful message to come out of a movie in nineteen
Keith Roysdon
It really is.
Emily Edwards (she/her): fifty-four.
Keith Roysdon
Yeah, it absolutely is. And we’re we’re some of us anyway are are backwards now compared to that way of thinking. That
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
that was that that that was the closing argument for a movie in nineteen fifty four is kind of amazing.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. Like I I per you know that I live in the greater Los Angeles area. I’ve never lived, not in a major metro region. So it’s like I grew up just outside of New York City, went to school in Boston, and then I’ve lived in in Los Angeles my entire adult life. And I know that you live in a major metropolitan region, you know, people coming
Keith Roysdon
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): in and out. It’s big enough. P lit
Keith Roysdon
It is.
Emily Edwards (she/her): If you said it to someone like if someone in France asked you where are you from, they’d probably know the city that you name. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.
Keith Roysdon
Maybe yeah I don’t know.
Emily Edwards (she/her): They’d ask you where Graceland was.
Keith Roysdon
and yeah, well and and I could tell that it’s it’s a long way out west.
Emily Edwards (she/her): From the sit from the cities you’ve heard of. It’s the third city. But but you know, it’s still a city. It’s still, you know, like it’s over a hundred thousand people, isn’t it? You know, with the colleges and stuff like that. Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
yeah, it’s like three hundred thousand or something. I was shocked when we moved down here at how much smaller it is than than Indianapolis, for example.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
But the I mean the metro area is like a million people. but but yeah, and then you get much beyond that and you’re really in Yeah, I won’t even get into that. So
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, the stacks. given the politics of 1954 and given what was happening to New York City, that how pro urban life this movie really seems to be. it you know, even down to the fact that, you know, once everybody once Jeff’s chucked out a window and like, you know, the the bad guy is apprehended, the one bad guy. you know, Miss Lonely Hearts even goes up to the songwriter’s apartment and seemingly, you know, hits it off with the songwriters. Like, once you you know, it’s like, the possibilities of living in an urban environment as opposed to those possibilities probably no n would not have come around if they were suburban or rural.
Keith Roysdon
Yeah, I mean w we’re it’s it’s hard to generalize, but definitely that is an opportunity for the scary things, like the plot of this movie, and the heartwarming things, the opportunities to know people and and to get to know people if you don’t know them, are not something that you can guarantee that you’ll find in a suburban. setting and certainly not a rural setting. I mean this
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
this is one of those movies and I this is a well duh statement. This is one of those movies where the story would not work if it wasn’t in a a an urban setting like that.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. No, I I actually slightly disagree just because you know, I think one of the things is this we I, you know, one of the wonderful things about New York City, especially is that it’s a vertical city. And so I think that this plays really well the with the set, you know, specifically of of saying like community just because it goes up and not out doesn’t mean that it’s that it’s not community. And I it reminds me so much of Miss Marple movie or Miss Marple books, where you know, she’ll just be sitting in her sitting room with the windows open and someone walks by and she overhears, you know, something that will end up being a clue. Miss Marple and I you know, usually has an able-bodied younger person go off and do the the dirty work that she can’t do. Like in 450 to Paddington, she’s got like a housekeeper that she sends off and she’s like, you go climb through the basement window and, you know, try to find stuff. And I think it’s a really, really good approximation of the rural ideal sort of English countryside, you know, murder.
Keith Roysdon
That’s true. That’s true.
Emily Edwards (she/her): But thrown into six buildings around a courtyard as opposed to like, you know,
Keith Roysdon
Developed.
Emily Edwards (she/her): a village. Exactly. Exactly. And so I I think that’s one of the reasons why I do really like it so much. but I wanna go back to you bringing up earlier how the tool that Jeff uses to fight off his attacker and how he uses the camera. you know, it’s normally something that stands between him and other people in order to keep everything at an arm’s length, which I think a lot of reporters and journalists definitely do. like, you know, you’re like, I can’t I’m not invested in this emotionally because I have, you know, like my tape recorder or my notebook or my or my camera. There’s something standing in between me and the horrors that I’m witnessing.
Keith Roysdon
Yeah, I mean there definitely is a a value to whether you think it’s necessarily value to everybody else, but to the reporter, the photographer. And if you haven’t seen the movie Civil War, you should. the the value of having this tool that lets you capture images but also filter them.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm.
Keith Roysdon
And you can say that a little bit about notebooks also
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
or or digital recorders or something. I mean a a friend of mine used to say that the camera changes a situation just by its presence. And and I think that is absolutely the case. But yeah the
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
the the idea that that that Jeff uses those tools because that’s pretty much all other than the the plucky visiting nurse and
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
the the most beautiful woman in the world. you know, other than those, he has he has r limited resources. And one of is that camera of the long lens and of course the flashbulbs.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. I wonder if anybody underneath the age of forty would know like about flashbulbs. Like, you know.
Keith Roysdon
Yeah, I think that’s interesting. Yeah. That’s that’s obviously very interesting. But I th I think that about a lot of things. I you know, one of the things I put in in one of my books was drawn from the idea that you used to get your news from your friends from that phone that was hanging on the wall in your kitchen or the the you know, on in a hallway outside you know, and and the cord could stretch, you know,
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
somebody’s rear me of a little bit of privacy or something. But yeah, but the idea that w we’re so connected all the time and always aware with my Wi-Fi being flaky this week, I’ve
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
acutely felt the and it’s like how many years ago I wouldn’t be able to do any of these things. We wouldn’t be
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
able to talk like this. And and we get so accustomed to it. And kind of like he was accustomed to his life, you know, Jets sitting around and and taking pictures and things like that. But how limited we feel when we don’t have those tools anymore.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
And and and in some ways it it’s he’s still a grumpy ass, but but in some ways. I mean that it makes him a little more understandable because everything it helps him relate to the world he thinks he doesn’t have anymore. And then he finds a couple of them that he can use, the long
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
lens and the flashbulbs.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I think one of the my favorite things about it is like you can tell that Jeff is the kind of guy who thinks that marriage is the worst thing that could ever happen to a man. And he’s almost titillated and thrilled that he has an example to show Lisa that, you know, this is what can happen to you if you get married. Like your husband can murder you. You would never don’t marry me. You don’t know if I if I’m gonna be the guy the guy who can murder you. And then like when she gets so into solving the murder and not squeamish at the thought of like, well, essentially finding this dead woman’s head in a duffel bag, she’s just almost excited about that as he is. You can tell that he’s almost like, shit, I have to find another reason not to propose to the most beautiful woman in the world who secretly loves me.
Keith Roysdon
This is true. This
Emily Edwards (she/her): Ha ha.
Keith Roysdon
is true. For whatever reason she does. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, yeah. And you know, you you wonder about it. And and this is you can tell that it’s a well-written movie because not only are you enthralled in the mystery that’s in front of you, and it’s not so much of a who done it as a how catch which is a really difficult thing that is impossible to do in books because I I just don’t know how you would do that like from a narrative perspective. but you know, they’re so hell bent on on catching Thorson. And he he he’s just kind of like shit, what do I do with her? And then when he really feels, this is this is another thing that is like I think is secretly feminist about this movie, is that it’s not so secret, but like when he truly feels like he has conquered her spirit and she shows up in jeans, and then when she takes out The fashion magazine. It’s one of the most humorous things that I think Hitchcock has ever done in a movie where she’s just like, You think you broke me? Uh-uh. I’m gonna I’m in this for the long game and I’m gonna break you. And it’s just so delicious.
Keith Roysdon
And I don’t know whether not to obsess about Grace Kelly, although plenty of people did, but I don’t know that there’s an maybe there is, a movie where she’s in jeans e for even for a brief scene, like the beginning of or like the very end of of this movie. And man, I mean, there’s like nothing she could wear that she would not look good in. I mean
Emily Edwards (she/her): I know, I know.
Keith Roysdon
Yeah, you have the the the kind of meringue dresses and things like that as opposed to meringui, but the kind of merangi dresses and and
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
and the the nightgown and everything like that. And then yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): everything’s chiffon and just like you can see through it and you’re just supposed to be like, my God. Like she’s so beautiful.
Keith Roysdon
But she’s like, you know, in a blouse and jeans and probably not really penny loafers, but you know, that
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
kind of thing at the end. And yes, you’re right. It’s wonderful when she puts down the book about, you know, international adventure or something like that and picks up the the magazine again and is leafing through enjoying it. be true to herself.
Emily Edwards (she/her): So she’s wearing the pants in that relationship. It’s so good. It’s so good.
Keith Roysdon
You know, I’d be fine with that. I’d be fine with that.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Exactly. Now you are putting out a book that is set in 1948 later this year. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
Keith Roysdon
Yeah, I wanted to do something at some point that was kind of about my mom’s family. my my mom who’s no longer with us, nobody really in that immediate family. I have a an aunt who married into those siblings, but my mom had seven or eight or nine in her family. And most of them were were women, and they left their little town. in Tennessee and went to Muncie, Indiana, which was at the time was an industrial powerhouse. I mean we had 6,000 people working at the Borderwater plant. We had 4,000 people working at at the Chevrolet plant. We had you know 3,000 working at the Del Delco battery plant. You know, there was guidelamp not too far from there and all the machine shops that supplied all those huge factories. So the The premise of the book is exactly what the premise was for my mom’s family. Her dad and the four oldest girls moved from Tennessee to Indiana and basically tried to make a living before the the mom and the youngest kids, the little kids, left Tennessee and came up to Indiana. The funniest part about that is that my Hard to imagine for anybody who knows me. you know, my family has like a streak of ill temper at times, and
Emily Edwards (she/her): Ha ha.
Keith Roysdon
so my grandfather, my mom’s dad, all these he and the four older girls would get jobs at some factory, and he would get irritated at something, and he would quit the job,
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Keith Roysdon
but he would make all his daughters quit too. So
Emily Edwards (she/her): my god.
Keith Roysdon
so they all stormed out. And because Muncie was Muncie, I mean American lawnmower, you know, the real lawnmower, the one you push mow,
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
and everything, they had a they had a factory in Muncie. And so
Emily Edwards (she/her): I didn’t know any of this.
Keith Roysdon
the so they just they could just migrate from place just walk
Emily Edwards (she/her): Walk down the street.
Keith Roysdon
to the next factory and all get all five of them get jobs. But I went so I was fascinated by that family dynamic with the part of the family coming to Indiana and part of the family staying there until they the Indiana family was established. And then at some point I was looking at a blog by my friend John Disher. And John had gone through the Rivalee Theater in Muncie before it was torn down in the late 1980s. And I was writing about that demolition, right, for the newspaper. And John posted many, many photos that he took of things that he found during the demolition. And one of them was a ticket to a spook show. It was just something that was found there from June 11th, 1948. And he found it forty years later and posted a picture on his blog. And it was a spook shows and the title of mine is Ghost Show, which they’re all also known by that. Where these traveling magic slash horror slash comedy troops. And there’s an entire book called Ghostmasters, which
Emily Edwards (she/her): Huh.
Keith Roysdon
documents the history of these, which started in France and also in the United States in the eighteen hundreds, and they ran pretty much in the United States up until like the nineteen seventies. And I think
Emily Edwards (she/her): wow.
Keith Roysdon
it rapidly got to the point where somebody decided it’s not probably the best idea to like turn all the lights off in a theater and start
Emily Edwards (she/her): No.
Keith Roysdon
doing things to terrify the people because they were
Emily Edwards (she/her): Make people panic.
Keith Roysdon
yeah, make people panic. So the the the idea of of writing about my family And melding it with this story is what led me to write Go Show. And I I threw everything into I describe it as, and this dates me, as Rich Man, Poor Man, the novel Rich Man, Poor Man. It’s like Rich Man Poor Man, but there are no rich men. It’s
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
basically these flat broke family who comes to tent from Tennessee to Indiana, and I mix in all these things like You know, the youngest girl having consciousness raised because she s goes to type papers for a lesbian college professor and she falls in love with a Romani boy whose family is is traveling and is there and of course is roughed up by everybody because the
Emily Edwards (she/her): Townies, yeah.
Keith Roysdon
gypsies connotation. And you know, we have the the one girl who goes to work. For a lawyer and and does not have the greatest experience in her life. So all these things that I threw in there, including an actual real ghost, and because there was supposedly a ghost in this theater that I that I’m writing about. And
Emily Edwards (she/her): I love it.
Keith Roysdon
also Harry Truman shows up.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Why not?
Keith Roysdon
Harry Truman, why not? Harry Truman had come to Muncie twice in that year on the campaign trail, literally
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, stumping.
Keith Roysdon
on the back of a train making speeches. So
Emily Edwards (she/her): That’s awesome.
Keith Roysdon
I made the parents in the book avid Truman knights. And they love Truman. And
Emily Edwards (she/her): Hat salesman Harry Truman.
Keith Roysdon
yeah. And Harry shows up right at the worst, most tragic point for the family. And Harry’s mother had died. His beloved mother had died a few months before. And that wisdom he’s able to impart to these people who are just like wrecked by
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Keith Roysdon
a tragedy. j all of this stuff was just just impossible for me to not want to put into a book, which is why it is so freaking long. I mean it’s it’s like it’s literally like, you know, I I’m rereading it right now and I’m at page two hundred and something. And it’s like, only another three or four hundred to go, you know? So
Emily Edwards (she/her): You’re really terse like I am. Like we keep our word counts down. I need to know what the word count is on this sucker.
Keith Roysdon
Yeah, our our our friend Libby Cudmore, she’s editing a story for me and she was like all but cursing me. Put some freaking emotion into these characters, you know? So
Emily Edwards (she/her): He’s got a newspaper background too, so she knows, but
Keith Roysdon
Just two terms.
Emily Edwards (she/her): She’s awesome. I cannot thank you. So when do you know when pre-order links for for Ghost Show is gonna be is gonna be up?
Keith Roysdon
I don’t I don’t we’re Joel and I are talking about doing it f before the Christmas season. so that if people need something to make their Christmas tree taller, you know, it it’ll be like this thing like this, you know. I’m not so
Emily Edwards (she/her): It’ll be a nice little door stop.
Keith Roysdon
I’m not sure. Basically, present company included, a couple of people still have to read this damn thing. And and that I posted a picture on the blog of of my friend John Disher’s picture of the Rivoli theater because the climax of the of the story takes place in the theater. during a ghost show with run by a Bella Lagosi type washed up actor. You know, I mean I my God. Somebody God, somebody needs to st really? Wow.
Emily Edwards (she/her): We need to bring back traveling vaudeville. I had a great uncle who was a vaudevillian c comedian. Yeah, yeah. I don’t know a whole lot about him, but man, we need to bring that back.
Keith Roysdon
So anyway, it’s it’s my typical thing of too much, too many characters, too many plots, and this one, too many pages. But we’ll s my God.
Emily Edwards (she/her): You’re really giving it the hard sell here, Keith.
Keith Roysdon
Well, you know, I I I’ll put a more optimistic spin on it before we actually put the thing out. I’ll try to think of something, you know, this is guaranteed if you want to, if you see a bug crawling across your living room, you want to throw it at it, it will almost certainly kill it.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Press your tofu with Keith Royston’s Ghost Show. keep in touch with you on social media.
Keith Roysdon
well first I would ask them why do you want to be on social media?
Emily Edwards (she/her): Because you’re delightful and I’ve given you the nod and they like me.
Keith Roysdon
no, I mean I ask myself that every day too, so but thank you. yeah, just I my name, which is just impossible to to spell and people have trouble saying it. But if you if you if if you do a cursory search for me, you’ll find way too many places where I’m haunting the corners of the internet.
Emily Edwards (she/her): And I will also politely have links in the show notes for everybody who wants to stalk you as much as I do. Thank you so much for chatting with me. It’s always delightful.
Keith Roysdon
It’s so much fun. I I you know, I I’m here every every other week. If you think maybe every third week would be better, I’m down with that.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Perfect. Perfect.
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