The incredible Jackie McMahon, author of THE CLOAK AND DAGGER CLUB, joins host Emily J. Edwards to discuss a Robert Altman classic starring almost every great British actor who tread the boards: GOSFORD PARK. The Julian Fellows-penned, Oscar-winning film takes the classic closed-loom, country-mansion mystery and turns it on its head, as the upstairs/downstairs dynamic dissolves when no one really cares that a man met a violent end in his home.
Find Jackie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jackiereadsandwrites/
Chapters
- 00:00 Setting the Stage: 1930s London and Gosford Park
- 04:05 Character Interactions and Social Dynamics
- 32:29 Challenges of Classic Detective Novels
- 33:07 Balancing Authenticity and Sensitivity
- 36:29 Representation of Marginalized Groups
- 59:24 Justice and Social Order in Mystery Fiction
Transcript:
Emily Edwards (she/her): Greetings, gumshes, and welcome to another episode of Silver Screen Sleuth. My name is Emily Edwards. I am your host, and I am also a mystery author. And the whole conceit of this show is that I like to talk to other mystery authors about mystery movies and television shows. Thank you so much for always joining us every single week, except for last week, because I didn’t make one for Labor Day. well, but here we go. We’re kicking off a wonderful episode with my guest this week, Jackie McMahon. How are you?
Jackie McMahon
Hi Emily, I am doing great. Thank you so much for having me here. I’m so excited to talk about this with you.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I’m so thrilled that you are a historical mystery novelist. your book that’s out is called The Cloak and Dagger Club. it takes place in London in 1930, which is absolutely perfect for the movie that we’re discussing today, which is Gosford Park, which takes place in the night in I think 1932. But would you tell us a little bit about your book and and w why you went with London?
Jackie McMahon
Yes, so my book is about a club club of crime writers called the Cloak and Dagger Club. In 1930s London, Lucy, my protagonist, is invited to join this club and she accepts the invitation, even though her ex-fiance is also a member of the group. So when the club’s awful president ends up getting murdered, the two of them agree that they are going to work together to solve the case. The reason that it’s set in nineteen thirties London is because it’s really inspired by my love of Agatha Christie and also a real group called the Detection Club that was founded in London in the year nineteen thirty. So that was the initial idea for the book is wouldn’t that be really cool if there was a crime writers club where an actual murder happened?
Emily Edwards (she/her): That is awesome. I will say that is an absolutely gorgeous cover for for your book. And I can and I’ve seen the press for it because you’ve gotten some wonderful. Press for the book and just that cover standing out at you, just absolutely gorgeous, absolutely thrilling. And it really does capture that wonderful sort of mid-interwar vibe that that’s happening in the 1930s, where so much is happening politically, especially in London and in England, where their entire concept of how the world is supposed to work. kind of just gets a wrench thrown into it and nobody really knows what to do with themselves.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, thank you for saying that about the cover. I am very happy with it. Shout out to the art department at Berkeley. They are so amazing at what they do. I told them that I wanted an art deco vibe and they totally ran with it. So they are amazing.
Emily Edwards (she/her): It it’s absolutely gorgeous. and as much as we don’t like to admit it, the covers do so much like sales for, you know, our books and they’re very important. And there’s really like very little that’s more stressful than waiting to get your cover and your and like from your publisher, because you don’t really have that much input input on it when you’re writing.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And you know, it’s it’s a very competitive market out there in any form of entertainment. So whatever you can do to catch people’s eye is really important and really powerful,
Emily Edwards (she/her): so one of the things that I absolutely love about the fact that you chose Gosford Park. Is that it was probably my first Robert Altman movie that I ever saw because this came out when I was in high school. And I remember going and seeing it at my like local independent theater, which is actually still functioning, and just absolutely falling in love with this movie. And I don’t think I knew just how important Robert Altman was, and I definitely didn’t know just how. much it plays with the country house mystery that Agatha Christie was really vital in in bringing us. And I was wondering, when did you first experience this movie and how deep were you in Christy Land? You know what I mean? Before you first viewed it.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, I don’t remember what year exactly I first saw this movie. I’m gonna make some people out there feel really old. When this movie came out, I would have been about two years old. so
Emily Edwards (she/her): Nice.
Jackie McMahon
I definitely was not going to the movies at the time to see that.
Emily Edwards (she/her): No.
Jackie McMahon
I couldn’t even make it through finding Nemo when I was two years old. but my dad loves this movie. He has seen this movie so many times, and so When I was probably fifteen-ish, he’s the one who got me to watch it. And it’s kind of funny because actually, in hindsight, he accidentally spoiled part of the movie for me
Emily Edwards (she/her): no.
Jackie McMahon
the first time we watched it. I and he doesn’t remember doing this. I don’t think he did it intentionally. I think it was just he was trying to give me context for who all the characters are in the movie. And he said something that’s relevant to the reveal at the end. So I watched the entire movie. We get to the end, and I was like, Yeah, Dad, you told me that in the first 20 minutes of watching the movie.
Emily Edwards (she/her): no.
Jackie McMahon
he doesn’t remember doing this. He has said, if I did that, I’m sorry. I I think it’s just, you know, when you’ve watched a movie a gazillion times, you forget that some things maybe aren’t brought up at the beginning of the movie. But I watched
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yep.
Jackie McMahon
it for the first time. Back then when I would have been in high school. And then I re-watched it again many years later when I was more into Agatha Christie and those country house mysteries. Because I really started to get into Christie when I was around 16 and read and
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Jackie McMahon
then there were none. And this is actually a really great movie to re-watch because when you re-watch it knowing everything that happens, there are so many clues that you might have
Emily Edwards (she/her): yeah.
Jackie McMahon
overlooked the first time, but when you re-watch it with that context, it all is just so very clear and you see all of these little things that the first time you could have overlooked very easily, which is a really great feeling to have when you’re rereading or re-watching a mystery film.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, you know, I think that mystery is one of the genres that people have a tendency to go back and reread or rewatch because you you’re so hungry to see how the cards sort of like fold together in order to to you know to when you dismantle the house, when you dismantle the facade that’s been built, you want to see how they all fold together. And that’s one of my absolute favorite things about. Rereading, like I think my introduction to Christy too was also and then there were none, which is you know, when the reveal for that comes at the very end and you’re just so hungry to see what you missed, and you immediately go back because it’s not a terribly long book, and you immediately go back and start rereading it just to see. And it’s just this wonderful, aha, beautiful moment where you, or at least for me, you start to realize that that’s how. That’s the joy of storytelling and that’s the joy of writing. And that it’s this is like this really powerful sort of moment that happens when you when you go back and see it. And I think this is probably only my third or fourth time seeing Gosford Park. Again, I saw it when I was in high school, but when it was in theaters. And it was just such a beautiful, I think I really loved the ambiance of it, of the country house, because that was so foreign to me, that level of wealth and that scale of of. display was so foreign to my like little podunk East Coast understanding of, you know, just like housing developments where houses look all the same and of you know, and and to understand like the country estate and things like that. And it’s such a it’s so realized and that the production design and the cinematography of this movie really are just so layered and gorgeous. And I was wondering, When you think about sort of your favorite details of the movie, what are what are the things that really stand out to you when you think about, you know, like how he drew you into the world?
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting question. I mean, I think there is that appeal of the country house mystery because it is so foreign to all of us as Americans who don’t live in big fancy houses back in the 1930s. And what I think this movie does really well is sort of depicting the two different worlds within just that one house. You have the upstairs, which is the world of Opulence and fashion and these very elaborate dinners on these tables with silverware and and candelabras. And then the downstairs world, which even though it’s in the same house, is such an entirely different world and atmosphere from what’s going on above stairs, where it’s more close together, you have all of these people thrown together every day doing their work and making sure that this house runs smoothly. So that is something about this movie and just period dramas that examine this in general. I find them very interesting. And I also I find just like the the atmosphere of the country house, you know, obviously it’s a real house that they’re using, it’s not a set. The the beautiful drawing room they have with the grand piano, it is
Emily Edwards (she/her): I know.
Jackie McMahon
very atmospheric and really like you’re getting a peek into how a house like this would have actually been run. Does that answer
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
your question?
Emily Edwards (she/her): Totally. No, I I think the scenes where they’re in the drawing room with the care the man who’s playing Ivor Novello, who who is so fascinating and he’s so he’s such an enigma because he can move back and forth sort of between understanding up, you know, that he is a rich and famous man, but that everybody there hates him and that they, you know, they would prefer if he wasn’t. And one of the things about the scenes, the constant scenes where he’s expected to perform. And you know, someone is asking him to, you know, basically dance monkey. And he’s just like, that’s why I’m here. You know, this is why I’m allowed to be here. And then they never stop making fun of him behind his back. And it’s just an absolutely wonderful thing. And but I love the fact that it’s taking place at a time where they did have phonographs and they did have you know, records basically But this was still of a time where people remembered that you didn’t have music unless someone was playing it for you. And it’s such a wonderful job to help you remember how long ago this was, or it was set, essentially. And it does in that sort of care that charisma that he has while playing, you can see how. How how how well they they define the time and the space that it’s taking place in.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, definitely. I didn’t realize when I first watched this movie as a teenager that Ivor Novello was a real person. I had I had no idea
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
about that until one of my more recent rewatches, which is very interesting. I looked him up and I think he was sort of a frenemy of Noel Coward. Noel Coward was a little bit jealous of him because he
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes.
Jackie McMahon
thought that Ivor Novello was someone who I believe he used the phrase moved with a magic atmosphere. he was just that
Emily Edwards (she/her): gorgeous.
Jackie McMahon
charming of a man. And I think it is so interesting in this film how he is basically, even though he’s there as a guest, he’s being used for entertainment for these people who view themselves as being above him. And one of the only characters in the movie who actually seems to be displaying a real genuine interest in what he’s doing, at least out of the upstairs crowd, is Mabel, who is another
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
character that again Is part of that upstairs crowd, but doesn’t quite fit in, which I think is is really a a symbolic choice of how he’s viewed by everyone and how there are all these dynamics at play in the group because all these people have been invited here, but some of them fit in better than others. And even among this group of privileged people, there are some people who still think, well, but I I’m better than that person.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes. Yeah. It’s so funny too because you know, Ivor Novello was very successful before this movie takes place. So like the actual actor himself was extremely wealthy, extremely successful. And the way that the people with titles treat him as though he’s basically the the horse shit on the bottom of their shoe, and they’re just like, How dare you be here? you know, Maggie Smith’s character has so many glorious Insults that she hurls at him, where she’s just like, What an extensive review of songs that he knows, where she’s just miserable and she hates the fact that he’s there. And then Maggie, as well, you know, she was the daughter of a glove factory owner, and her husband the entire movie is revolving on the frown fact that her husband hates her so much because she did not come with as much money as he thought she did. And I love it’s really beautiful work by Julian Fellows, who’s also the creator of Downton Abbey, who wrote this, who understands the depth of contempt that the upper class has for anybody lower than them.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. Which is very interesting because so part of the reason I wanted to discuss this movie is because I love Julian Fellows’ work. Down and Abbey is probably my favorite television show. It’s one of the few television shows I’ve watched from beginning to end that never severely disappointed me in any way.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Totally.
Jackie McMahon
and The Gilded Age is amazing as well. That’s one of my new obsessions. But people who have watched Down and Abbey, the Criticism that I’ve seen some people give it is that they think it’s a too sanitized view of what it would have actually been like to be working in a house like this. You know, some people
Emily Edwards (she/her): Gotcha.
Jackie McMahon
think the people upstairs are too nice and the people downstairs are too happy to be working for them. And this movie is so the exact opposite, where
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
it really shows how so many of these people from the aristocracy. They not only view themselves as better than people who are new money, they basically at times treat the servants like they don’t exist. Like they are the wallpaper on this house. They will have arguments right in front of them as if they’re not there. Very early on in the movie, Nesbitt, he’s talking to Sir William’s daughter, Isabel, and one of the staff interrupts them and he literally says to her, don’t worry, that’s n that’s nobody. Like
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
To them he’s he’s not even a person to be considered.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. It’s absolutely fascinating. I always scroll through like the IMDB trivia before I, you know, talk about things. And one of the most brilliant things that that trivia brought up is the fact that V Robert Altman very specifically always had a servant in every single scene. So you could show that they were always in the room and they were always on the periphery, and that the the landed money people, which we learn throughout the movie, have absolutely no money whatsoever. Are, you know, how they do treat them basically like their furniture. And I think one of the most beautiful things about this is the fact that the movie spends so much time downstairs. They,
Jackie McMahon
Yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her): the only time they ever show the upstairs people is to show that they have no real relationships with one another, that they have no affection for one another, even though they’re all related through, you know, both blood and marriage, and that, you know, this person is this person’s aunt, and this person got married, and these are sisters, and they’re still related to cousins and various, and there’s And it’s so complicated as we know the British aristocracy to be that and they hate each other so much. But everybody downstairs, even the strangers that come in, there’s there’s an aff almost an immediate affection, even if trust isn’t there.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, that’s a really great point. And I do think that if you’re somebody who is gonna work in a house like this, you do have to sort of become a family with the people working there because this is in many ways your entire life. You’re gonna be there working long hours, you’re not gonna have a lot of time off. If you want to end up getting married, really your only choice is to marry somebody else who works at the same house as you. So you are gonna be spending a lot of time with those people. You’re probably gonna feel some camaraderie because you’re all working for these same people who sometimes may not be the most pleasant, you know. people sometimes trauma bond in bad workplace environments. And really, not a single one of the upstairs characters in this film is really happy at all.
Emily Edwards (she/her): They’re all so miserable. It’s it’s genuinely funny to watch them be so miserable because they’re so gorgeous and the the clothing is so sumptuous and so beautiful. And these evening gowns that all the women except for one of them are wearing a different even gown
Jackie McMahon
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her): every single night, and they’re all so fucking cranky all the time. And it’s just so beautiful, especially you know, with the with the influx of the Americans and the American money. And one of my favorite lines throughout the entire thing is, and it’s really I’ve thought to be the crux of the movie, is at some point Maggie Smith is is bemoaning to her lady’s maid, who’s played by Kelly McDonald, who is amazing in everything she’s ever done. And she’s just so exasperated. And at some point, Maggie Smith just goes, Why does one have to do these things? And she’s just so upset. That she has to go on this hunting party and she has to wear the tweeds and wear the correct shirt and go to dinner and go to cocktails and do and just that just this exasperation of why do we have to do these things while we, you know, 70 years later, know you’re not going to be doing them for much longer because the second world war is coming up, and whatever money you think you have now is going to be completely gone. And it’s just a really freshant thing to be, you know, given this in historical fiction.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. And the nineteen thirties are really starting the slow decline of the British aristocracy and the power they have in society. It gets to a point where it’s just too expensive for people to run these large houses unless they’re using them as filming locations or opening them to the public. And also after World War One, and then even more so after World War Two, there is this attitude in society where All of us supported the war. All of us had to send loved ones to the front, whether you’re rich or you’re poor. So how after we’ve all made these sacrifices, some of us losing our lives in these wars, how can we as a society say that some people are innately better than others when we’ve all had to go through this?
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, that wonderful great equalizer of trauma that everybody lived through. It’s it’s a really fascinating thing. Again, Julian Fellows does this so wonderfully with the dialogue because you know there’s there’s very fleeting moments that tell you so many things that you need to know about the the politics of the people, especially upstairs. the upstairs people are fascinating, you know, the the owners of the home who’s Michael Gambon and Kristen Scott Thomas, who are absolutely amazing. And they have an an adult daughter who, you know, someone enters and they sell her, you look so much better without that tummy. And you just are like, What do you mean? Are you talking about the tummy? And then she makes another reference to her maid later on that she, you know, she had been pregnant at a certain point and there is no baby. And the way that Fellows weaves those sorts of details throughout the interactions. It’s amazing to me just how much closeness he gives the upstairs people to their downstairs counterparts. Like, you know, you have Maggie Smith who’s constantly asking her maid, what are they talking about? What are they saying? What are what kind of dirt are they spilling? You know, and that even though the downstairs people are always very hesitant to get that close to the upstairs people, the upstairs people are hungry. For the the connection with someone who they consider lower than themselves.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. being a servant in that house, you must get a lot of tea, you know? People have
Emily Edwards (she/her): seriously.
Jackie McMahon
arguments right in front of you. You know, you have the staff who’s standing there during dinner service, they’re hearing everything people are talking about. I I do love Maggie Smith in this movie. I mean, her character, the Countess, really is not a likable person, but I because
Emily Edwards (she/her): She’s awful.
Jackie McMahon
she’s played by Maggie Smith, you’re like I I love Maggie Smith and she’s so good as this horrible snarky woman. Sort of a precursor to the character she’ll play on Downton Abbey, though the more awful version. and
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, seriously.
Jackie McMahon
it is so telling how her lady’s maid should be called by her surname. But she can’t be bothered to learn how to pronounce Mary’s name. She would rather
Emily Edwards (she/her): I know.
Jackie McMahon
just breach the rules of etiquette than actually learn to pronounce the name of the person who works for her.
Emily Edwards (she/her): It’s such a she’s so contemptuous, she’s so awful. And you know, my favorite was when she arrives at the house, and her niece, play played by Kristen Scott Thomas, basically goes, ‘Did you have a horrid journey?’ and she’s yes, yes, fairly horrid. These people are so adamant that their life is terrible. And it’s like you’ve never scrubbed a dish in your life, you’ve never had to clean up absolutely anything. And the upstairs people are so certain that no one has ever been put upon more than they are driving in the rain.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. Ugh. I mean when she tells Mary, I can’t wear that shirt to a hunting party, and then Mary is up at one in the morning, she’s scrubbing this shirt, going to all this trouble, only for the next day the countess to be like, actually I’m gonna wear the first shirt after all. It is
Emily Edwards (she/her): doesn’t immediately strangle her with the shirt.
Jackie McMahon
It is so awful but also so funny. She has not paid one second of thought to the effort that this poor girl has put in. No consideration whatsoever. I I mean Mary has the patience of a saint, honestly. God bless her.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Seriously, the actors that were cast in this, you know, it it’s difficult to talk about some of the greatest casting possibly ever put forward in a movie, where, you know, Gosford Park, the the front of the DVD in the movie poster is literally just a long string of the most famous British actors possibly ever put to screen, and then Ryan Philippi. And so it’s just
Jackie McMahon
Ha ha
Emily Edwards (she/her): it’s so it’s absolutely incredible. And I feel like this kind of Casting sort of led the way for something like Only Murders in the Building, where you have people who it’s now very difficult to divorce their faces from who they are as people. But for some reason, mystery, I think, really helps you forget that you know that, you know, Maggie Smith is Maggie Smith or that Steve Martin is Steve Martin. For some reason, when you put them into a mystery. movie. For some reason that really helps me divorce that I like I know this person’s real name, if that makes sense.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, that does make sense. Yeah. That’s an interesting point, yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): works like that because I I mean Richard Grant is in this and he’s playing one of the footmen and he’s
Jackie McMahon
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her): basically just the guy who looks who who looks after the silver. And you’re just like, that was a real job in in these houses, which is like so niche and so ridiculous. And he keeps the key for the safe where everybody’s jewelry is locked up. And he’s so deliciously like you know, just like evil. He’s so delicious in this movie. And he’s just chewing the scenery whenever he’s on screen of just like, how can I camp it up and also just like make all eyes turn to me, which is incredibly difficult in a movie where the cast is this completely sacked.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. I love some of his facial expressions in this movie. He is so great. I mean, so many great performances in here. I love Charles Dance. He has only a small part in
Emily Edwards (she/her): No.
Jackie McMahon
this movie, but he is such an amazing actor. I have loved everything I’ve ever seen him in. He he’s also this is a quick tangent, but he is in the mini-series adaptation of And Then There Were None as Justice Wargrave.
Emily Edwards (she/her): yes. Mm-hmm.
Jackie McMahon
That is an amazing adaptation, and he is
Emily Edwards (she/her): So good.
Jackie McMahon
amazing in all of his scenes in it. Even just with this small bit part, he still really kills it. And, you know, jokes aside about Ryan Philippi, I have to say, the first time I watched this movie, the first time that he spoke, I cringed. I
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
I thought this is one of the worst fake accents I’ve heard in a movie. Who was coaching him for this movie? Clearly, they did a horrible job. And then it actually becomes relevant to the plot. He’s intentionally doing a really bad accent because he’s actually not Scottish. And so I love that this bad accent is actually not just a really bad movie accent. It’s actually a clue that he is a liar and not Scottish. I I just love that so much.
Emily Edwards (she/her): The it that was one of the details where now, as someone who writes mystery novels, I’m like, if Julian Fellows does not get another television show after, you know, Gilded Age goes off the air, this man can write the most brilliant mystery novels because that lovely detail of the fact that he is trying to hide amongst the servant like servants. He’s trying to be the fox monk, the hen house. And it’s just an absolutely beautiful little detail, especially at the end after he gets caught out. And you know, he wakes up in bed and he’s shirtless while one of the maids is trying to light his fire. And he’s just like, you don’t have to, you know, call me sir, like you don’t have to be polite to me. I’m not an upstairs person. I was downstairs with you for a week. And she responds back, you can’t be on both teams at once, which is such a wonderful detail because throughout the movie, he’d been sexually propositioned by both Weissman and Sylvia. And you’re just like, my God. Julian fellows, you are so good at this. You have so many wonderful, like baked-in details that are just gorgeous little glittery threads throughout the entire tapestry of this movie.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, when writing a mystery, it is so important for some characters to have other secrets or other things going on that are revealed but are not necessarily directly tied to the actual reveal of who the murderer is. And what makes this one also so good is that it’s not just a red herring. It’s a red herring that also ties into the themes of the movie. Because
Emily Edwards (she/her): Totally.
Jackie McMahon
he’s someone who doesn’t Fully fit in in either one of these groups. The servants see him trying to infiltrate them really as an affront. It’s someone who is using them, using their stories for research, and someone who who hasn’t lived like they have. But also at the same time, once he is being more public about being an actor, he’s not gonna fit in with the above-stairs people either, because these snooty aristocrats. They’re not gonna go see a mystery film. There’s that one part where they’re talking to Weissman about the movie he’s making, and I don’t remember, maybe it was Maggie Smith’s character who says this line. He says, I can’t tell you how it ends, and she goes, it’s fine, none of us are gonna go see it anyway.
Emily Edwards (she/her): It’s so mean and it’s so beautiful. like I love the way that they treat Weissman throughout the entire movie. Again, Bob Balaban conceived of this movie just sort of like I want to do kind of like a British like murder mansion thing with Robert Altman, and then they hired Julian Fellows to write it. So it wasn’t necessarily Julian Fellows’ original idea, but they were like, We think you’re the guy from the job, and boy, did
Jackie McMahon
Exactly.
Emily Edwards (she/her): he do it. But I love the fact. That they keep calling him like the funny little American, and they never really kind of get to the point that like the British aristocracy has never met a Jewish person before. Like there are so few Jewish people in Britain that again, this is one of those things that you kind of look up when you’re watching a great British baking show. And by you, I mean me, because one time I they were making like bagels and a and a babka on an episode, and they said something like you know, like bagels should like light and fluffy. And you’re like, no, they shouldn’t. Or and or like Prue said to Paul that like his babka was better than any babka that she had had in New York City. And I remember all of my Jewish friends in New York City being like, excuse me? No. And I finally looked it up. And there are there are fewer Jewish people in Britain than there are in the state of Massachusetts. And Massachusetts. Not very well known for having a large Jewish population.
Jackie McMahon
No.
Emily Edwards (she/her): And so I just thought it was really funny that Balaban like very clearly made his character like so outside. Not only is he American, not only is he in a line of work that they could never even conceive of having respect for, but they also very specifically made the character Jewish. And they’re just kind of like, you are such an alien to us that we’re nicer to our Irish maid than we are to the incredibly like well respected and wealthy Jewish ma Jewish American man in amongst our like amongst our people.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. It’s also really interesting. I that is a mind-blowing fact that there were fewer
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
Jewish people in England than there were in the state of Massachusetts. And yet, despite that, when you read classic crime novels from the twenties and thirties, so many of them have offensive depictions of Jewish people. And
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes, yes they do.
Jackie McMahon
it it’s really a recurring element across multiple authors. I read The first Peter Whimsey mystery by Dorothy L. Sayers, and obviously it was a different
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
time. I’m not trying to cancel Dorothy L. Sayers. Her books are really good, but there is a Jewish character in that, and multiple multiple times throughout the book, they will just refer to him as the Hebrew. Which it is very offensive because you wouldn’t
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes, yeah. Was that whose body?
Jackie McMahon
refer to some guy as the Christian dude. Like
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, I know, yeah.
Jackie McMahon
you would just call him by his name. but yeah, but that’s really
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, it’s pretty awful. Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
something that, you know, as much as we love classic detective novels, you see that happen a lot, particularly before World War Two. Then
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
when World War Two happened, a lot of them kind of reconsidered things, you know, because if you examine them, you can see that after that they maybe realized, we shouldn’t have done
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, they move on to different things, you know, the
Jackie McMahon
that.
Emily Edwards (she/her): they gave people like the glorious out of like the communists, where it’s like we can’t, you know, like describe them as a person or a religion. It’s just their economic beliefs. And you’re just like, no. Like mits mystery, like early pre-World War II mystery is a really sort of like hot potato thing to be someone who is an advocate for, which I also am, because You know, again, we have Dorothy Sayers, we’ve got Agatha Christie, we’ve got Ngaio Marsh, we’ve got all of these absolutely, you know, groundbreaking female authors. But it’s difficult to remove them sort of like you can’t remove them from the time. And knowing that most of them were, you know, at least upper middle class, Dorothy Sayers was a ad copywriter, and you know, like every Guinness ad that you remember from like the mid-century, sort of like the 1930s, 1940s. That was Dorothy Sayers. She wrote all of them. Like she was an absolutely wonderfully successful advertising copywriter. And, you know, you want to advocate. It’s a very difficult thing to be in the position of you want to advocate for people to read these books. And then you go, right, remember chapter 13, they’re going to say something absolutely horrible about people of your, you know, ethnicity or your gender or your religion. And it’s, it’s It’s such a bummer, but and it’s a very difficult thing to sort of balance as someone who is a fan of these sort of classic Who Dunit mystery novels.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, and you know, the way I see it, I think that we can recognize that there were a lot of people in the past who believed things that nowadays were considered offensive. That doesn’t mean that it’s okay or that I, as a twenty first
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. Exactly.
Jackie McMahon
century person reading this book, am gonna go, I don’t like that.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
I I think that that should be something that is discussed and we can examine why those comments or those worldviews are harmful. And at the same time, we don’t have to say nobody’s allowed to read these books ever again.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Absolutely.
Jackie McMahon
and I also personally don’t think that they should necessarily be sanitizing these, because I know there was a whole kerfuffle where the publisher was going through Agatha Christie’s books and taking out things that they deemed offensive. And Yes, it it is troubling to read and sometimes uncomfortable to read, but it’s also not, in my opinion, a good thing to act like people didn’t say these things or that they didn’t happen, because you need to recognize, okay, there were a lot of things in the past that were harmful and we don’t we shouldn’t agree with them anymore. And we can learn from that, have a discussion about it, and people who just ignore the past are are doomed to repeat it.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, you know, that’s actually something that I put real conscientious effort into when I was writing my books that are set in nineteen fifty, which is that, you know, I don’t use the words for black people that most people would use in the nineteen fifties because my audience now is modern. I’m not comfortable using those words. And so I say black as opposed to the more far more offensive words that would have been used. and I’ve gotten some pushback from Readers, or at least when I do the thing everybody tells you not to do, and I go and read Goodreads reviews where I’m just kind of like, that’s the thing you’re gonna take umbrage with. Or, you know, I have queer characters in my books, and you know, I their friends know and still love and accept them, you know, and I think that is a really sort of difficult balance to strike when you are writing historical fiction. Of how do you sort of stay true to your own feelings about marginalized groups or, you know, your repulsion at, you know, basic prejudices that still exist while, you know, trying to write something that is authentic to say 1930 or 1950? Did you find yourself really like conscientiously figuring out sort of like the politics of the people in your book?
Jackie McMahon
That’s a good question. I mean, I want to make the characters in my book more tolerant and open-minded
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Jackie McMahon
than perhaps somebody who was in living in the 1930s would have actually been, because I personally do not want to write about bigots. I do not want to sympathize with bigots. I do not want those people to be the main characters in my books. And at the same time, I also recognize that. Having read detective fiction, there are some harmful stereotypes and comments in them. And so actually, when I was coming up with my book, I very intentionally made one of the main characters Jewish, and one
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Jackie McMahon
of the main characters is half Chinese. And the reason I did that was because I do feel like those groups in particular are ones where you see a lot of harmful things said about them in detective fiction from that period. It’s also very interesting in this movie. The film that Weissman is doing is a Charlie Chan film. And
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
Charlie Chan was a a real character who was a Chinese American detective written by, I believe, a white author who had the intention of creating a more sympathetic Chinese character because there was a period that is known as the Yellow Peril.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Jackie McMahon
Where due to colonialism in British fiction, there were a lot of racist depictions of Chinese people as villains in
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
works of fiction. And so this character was created to combat that a little bit. However, when they made the films, he was still played by a white actor in Yellowface. Yes, yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, in the most horrific way possible. Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
So those are are things that I’ve read detective fiction and I’ve noticed, and so I deliberately wanted to include characters with those identities and make them more fleshed out and less stereotypical, more like real, fully fleshed out human beings. And you know, obviously There were some things like if you were a gay person in the 1930s, you couldn’t necessarily be out with everyone like you would be nowadays because it was illegal. It could get you thrown in
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, exactly.
Jackie McMahon
jail. So sort of balancing the historical realities, but also I’m not gonna write about a character who is a homophobe and make them the hero of my book because
Emily Edwards (she/her): Exactly.
Jackie McMahon
that’s not somebody who I would want to read about as a hero, or I would want to write about as a hero. I want to actually love the characters in my book.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. And I’m so glad you brought up the Charlie Chan aspect of this because, you know, he Weissman is discussing, you know, making this film and he’s on these really long, very expensive calls to California,
Jackie McMahon
Yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her): trying to figure out how to pay for this, how to get it done. He wants Charlie Chan to go to a hunting party in in England, but of course he’s filming it in California where You know, Los Angeles has an incredible historic Chinatown. that’s you know, been here since the ear, like the late 1800s, early 1900s. It’s absolutely beautiful. and I love the fact that you brought up the Charlie Chan because one of the I think the first Charlie Chan movie ever made, and I don’t remember what year it was, was the only Charlie Chan where they actually had an Asian person play Charlie Chan. And it was the very First one. And then after that, they were like, Nope. And they just threw it away. And they hired like a Swedish actor to play Charlie Chan. And it w
Jackie McMahon
Yes, yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her): it’s very bizarre when you look into the history of Charlie Chan. And then, of course, at some point on this show, we’re gonna be doing Murder by Death, which is that wonderful spoof movie from the 1970s, where they kind of spoof all the famous detectives and they go to a mansion where there’s a murder. Maggie Smith is also in it. And they have Peter Sellers play the Charlie Chan character in Yellowface. And it is one of, if not the most offensive things you will ever see on screen. It is it’s horrible. And you know that they’re doing it in that like hipster racism way of like, we know it’s horrible, so you can’t get mad at us. And it’s still Absolutely one of the most offensive things because he also has his son with him, who is an actual like Asian actor. And you’re just like, it’s it’s absolutely brutal, but I love the fact that they wove, like you mentioned, that into the narrative of who this man is and what he works to bring to screen. And it’s just the the depth of detail that fellows brings into this with only a handful of lines here and there.
Jackie McMahon
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her): And one of my absolute favorite scenes is, and I think it’s it’s just a deeply emotional scene that you don’t often get in mystery in mystery movies, and especially like Country House Murders, which is at the end, Tom Hollander plays a character who wants to go into business. I think selling shoes to armies in North Africa. It’s again like this very sort of British way of looking at the empire. Of, like, well, we’ve got this territory that we own in North Africa. So what we should really do is sell them stuff. And you’re just like, God, this is this is so offensive. I minored in post-colonial studies in college. And he it needs money and he needs seed money for this business. And so he’s asking Michael Gambon’s money character for money, and Michael Gambon’s not gonna give him any money. And so he finally realized that this character is not gonna give him any money. And his he’s upset because you know he’s ruined. And he runs to the pantry in the kitchen and he’s hiding in the kitchen and he’s just eating jam from the jar. And he’s just so sad. And he gives this speech to a maid who’s not even high up on the maid food chain of just like, don’t you think that just some men are just luckier than others? And you know, I basically like some men are thwarted before they even start. And I’m Ruined and my wife is going to hate me and my life is over. Nobody’s ever had a worse life than me. And he’s so sad and he’s so heartbroken. And this woman just basically goes, like, well, if you love someone and someone loves you back, like it doesn’t get any better than that. And he’d never considered it.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Any point in his life did he ever consider that his life is fine, he just doesn’t have a ton of money, and his wife loves him no matter what. It had never even crossed his goddamn mind.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. that is so good. Tom Hollander is always Mr. Collins from Pride and Prejudice to me. Anytime
Emily Edwards (she/her): it’s
Jackie McMahon
I see him, that’s that’s who he is to me. But
Emily Edwards (she/her): He just has this beautiful sort of s quiet to the way that he acts. Whereas, you know, Richard E. Grant, we were discussing him earlier, he always has this like cocky nature to the way to everything that he brings on screen. And Michael Gambon has this gr this gravity. And Maggie Smith has this beautiful sort of imperiousness that Kristen Scott Thomas, you know, mirrors really, really well, where it’s just like, there’s nothing you could say to those women that would ever that would just like. Ever get past the armor on the outside. But Tom Hollander to me just has this wonderful, like sort of meek quietness that is so perfect for the character that he’s given in this. And I really just like the casting of this is absolutely wonderful. We haven’t even gotten to Clive Owen yet, who’s just like
Jackie McMahon
Yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her): just babing around, just in a suit, just looking all Clive Owen and gorgeous. And you’re just kind of like perfect. You know what? No notes. This is great. No problem. Perfect rake, just absolutely flawless.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, I mean this is a movie with an amazing cast, so many heavy hitters here. I don’t think there’s a weak link in the bunch, and
Emily Edwards (she/her): No.
Jackie McMahon
all of them just do a really great job. I mean, Derek Jacobee is in this as one of the staff, like what a what a mate major actor playing like one of these roles. my gosh.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I know, I know. Apparently, again, according to IMTB trivia, which I will take as fact, even though it probably isn’t, apparently Robert Altman had a really hard time getting funding for this movie. Everybody was just kind of like, you’re Robert Altman, your days are behind you. Like we’re you, you know, we’re not going to give you money for this incredibly like old style movie. You know, it’s been yeah, mysteries really, really fell out of favor after the 1930s on screen. Like, especially during the 50s and 60s, the There they just there weren’t any being made. It was considered like a very, very old style movie that nobody wanted to see. And so Altman had a really hard time getting funding for this, which is shocking when you think it’s it’s Robert Altman. He did, you know, just he did one of the greatest movies ever made, which is The Long Goodbye. It’s absolutely flawless. And there’s like, who wouldn’t give Robert just Give $15 million, Robert Altman. Here’s what you need. And apparently most people signed up to be in this movie and work for free and only get paid after the movie came out, which is just absolutely astronomical. Like if you think about like what kind of union rules were they fudging in order to get that to happen. But it was a huge hit. It ended up making tons of money.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, amazing. I also I do want to talk about Michael Gambin’s character, Sir William, in this because
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yes.
Jackie McMahon
I I personally love a mystery where the person who gets murdered is very unlikable. Everybody
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. I know.
Jackie McMahon
has a motive to potentially murder this person. I mean, anybody who’s read my book knows that because the murder victim in my debut is an extremely unlikable person. And it’s so interesting because even though this is his house, and he’s the one who has all the money, there are still people who view him as too new money and gauche. And then
Emily Edwards (she/her): I love that.
Jackie McMahon
also, even though he gets murdered, there is that question of, okay, whoever murdered him Do we even want do we even want that person to be punished?
Emily Edwards (she/her): I love that so much. You know, we have the introduction of the investigator, who’s played by Stephen Fry. And he comes in and he’s just like in his trench coat and he’s horrible. He’s absolutely horrible at his job. He he can’t even get his name out without everybody
Jackie McMahon
Yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her): talking over him, ignoring him. You’re his little constable who’s there with him is just like, Don’t you want to look at these clues? And he’s like broken glassware, things on the floor. The servants will take care of it. He’s so bad and it’s so delicious as someone who’s watching this as someone who loves mystery fiction because you’re like, they’re never gonna solve this. And it turns out they’re never gonna solve this.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. I I also love how all of the above stairs characters r other than Lady Stockbridge who ha had a thing for Sir William, everybody else treats this murder like a minor inconvenience. Like, it’s so annoying that I have to be stuck here when I was supposed to go back to London today. Like how long do you think I’m gonna be here? And it’s like a a man just was murdered, a man who most of you are related to, and you do not give two shits. You know?
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. Dependent on no shits are given whatsoever. And I love the fact that when they’re actually going through like the motives that people have, they’re just like, the money actually comes from KristenSnot.com Kristen Scott Thomas’s character. The inheritance, like their daughter Isabel doesn’t get her inheritance until her mother dies. And then the guy who’s been thinking about, you know, proposing to her is like, wait, what? Your dad died and you don’t get any money? Peace out, and he just gets in his car with his hot friend and like disappears. It’s so funny.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. Yeah. and you know, I people who follow me on social media have heard me say this before, but in my opinion, one thing that every mystery needs to have is justice. You need to get to the end of the movie and feel like justice has been done. Because that’s one of the appeals of the mystery is that in real life people don’t always suffer the consequences of their actions. So it’s very satisfying To see somebody be held responsible for doing a horrible thing. However,
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah.
Jackie McMahon
needing to have justice does not necessarily mean that the person who committed the murder has to go to jail. Because sometimes, you know, you watch a mystery or you read a mystery, and a really good writer can kind of convince you that maybe it’s okay if this person doesn’t get caught. Maybe this murder victim had it coming.
Emily Edwards (she/her): That is, I think, the most beautiful thing about modern or currently written mystery fiction. In that, you know, the person who figures it out is Kelly McDonald’s character, thick Irish accent, you know, and she’s just kind of like, she’s the ladies’ maid. She’s not even really that good at her job. She’s new, you know, she’s she’s the the one. The lowest people on, you know, when they’re sitting, when the servants are sitting down to dinner the first night, and she is adamant that she does not, and they sit according to where their
Jackie McMahon
Yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her): people sit upstairs. And I’m like, this is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. I’m too American to understand this. I love it so much. And she’s like, I don’t want to take the countess’s spot. That’s ridiculous. I’m so low on the ladder of importance. And so she’s really given that sort of weight that amateur slews have, where she’s just like, I’m an outsider, I’m uneducated, I’m I have no importance, I have no authority. And what because she’s the only person who figures out who done it by the end of the movie, I love the fact that they make it basically into a a maid of the house is the amateur sleuth who figures out the who committed the crime. And it really is a truly beautiful thing that we understand now that justice. Like you said, does not mean the murderer gets caught. And that once they are going through all of the just lit, like absolute laundry list of crimes that Michael Gambon’s character has committed against vulnerable women in his charge or his care, you’re like, good riddance. So happy you’re not here anymore. And it’s absolutely gorgeous. And though, even though the women in his life who maybe tolerated him or even came to respect or love him. Like because all of the people who are really affected by his death are his wife, his sisters-in-law, the maid that he’s been sleeping with that has an affection for him, his daughter. So it’s mostly just like the like this powerful man and the women who just like tolerated his bullshit for a million years. And you know, for all of them to just kind of be like, no. It’s such good writing on for this mystery
Jackie McMahon
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): and how it concludes.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. I do also love that Emily Watson’s character takes his dog at the end.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I know. She, you know, I love the fact that they did not make her a sort of like, you know, simpering sort of, no, what am I going to do now? Like woman, you know what I mean? Where it’s like she doesn’t have an education. She’s she’s a housemaid. She does not have an education. She does not have connections. She does not have money. She does not have She probably didn’t leave with the letter of recommendation in her pocket. Like that did not happen. And she is so confident that she will land on her feet. And she does, you know, and it’s like there’s no sort of like reflex to air quotes show her, you know, for what she’s done. It’s just simply like, no, she is competent. She will be fine. And that is that is a wildly forward-thinking thing for this movie to do. And also for Helen Miren’s character, who we’re just now getting to, but referring to obliquely, you know, for the fact that even she is just like, no, I’m fine. And that’s the end of it. And it it’s just absolutely it you can tell that Julian Fellows likes women, which you don’t get a lot in mystery fiction, because oftentimes Male writers will be like, that hysterical woman, or that money
Jackie McMahon
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her): grubbing woman, or that woman who married for power. And you know, we’re all giving these sort of like Greek, you know, Cladymnestra murders her husband kind of, you know, thing. And you’re just like, no, Julian Fellows loves the women of this house. He loves them.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. I I was also thinking in my head, I was like, How have we not talked about Helen Mirren Yet in this podcast? Because the the speech that she gives at the end when Mary comes to talk to her is just so superbly written and superbly performed. Her discussion of I know what they want before they even know it themselves and Mary says to her, What about your life? And she says, I’m a good servant, I have no life.
Emily Edwards (she/her): God.
Jackie McMahon
So powerful.
Emily Edwards (she/her): it really mirrors or echoes the sort of understanding of we had of like second wave feminism, where it’s like women were, at home with their kids. They were ch they were doing they were not supposed to do anything but be servants to their to their husbands and their children. the the story of her path to motherhood and how it was yanked away from her. And it really is this wonderful moment where she acknowledges that like, I’m not supposed to be a human being. No one sees me as a human being. You, even though you’re a maid in this house, you just see me as the bitch boss who’s just here to tell you how to serve these people better. And it’s a really you could see Kelly McDonald’s face just like going through so many emotions while Helen Helen Mirrin is is giving her that monologue.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Oof, man. I, you know, I I there’s so much happening. the sexual politics that are happening here Bob Baliban’s character Weissman has his Flirted with openly with Ryan Philippi’s character, who’s the actor. And he’s just like, Aren’t you going to come back later? And Ryan Philippi is just like, I think tongues will start wagging if I do that. and how sexual all the women are. Kristen Scott Thomas is just looking for an affair partner. She’s just like,
Jackie McMahon
Yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her): why not meme? I know my husband’s Tom Catting around. Why can’t I find somebody? then they talk about birth control and they talk about abortion. And you’re just like, this entire movie is so good at understanding how tumultuous the 1930s were in the concept of just like order. And I spoke with a British author named Kitty Watson with when I did an episode on Sherlock a couple of weeks ago, if not months ago. And I was like, why do the Brits love murder mysteries so much? Like it’s just so ingrained in the British like concept of like, you know, television, they’re all like little cozy murders and we’ve got Miss Marple and things like that. And she was just like, Well, we love order. And I was like, God, no wonder. Everybody lost their head in England, like in the interwar periods. Like, no wonder everybody was just like, hmm, what about fascism? Let’s give that a try. Like, let’s let’s talk about it like it’s a like a thought experiment. Cause like that that concept of like your upstairs, downstairs order just getting blown to smithereens, like, this movie just encapsulates that so well.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah. Yeah. And and the mystery is a genre that restores social order by its seeing justice in the end, you know. Some people have argued that the mystery is an inherently conservative form of literature. I mean, I think nowadays I wouldn’t really agree with that because there are a lot of people who play with that in different ways, but it is one that provides a strange degree of comfort because you know that in the end things will be right and you will feel that sense of of people getting what they deserved, even if necessarily what they deserve may or may not be going to jail, you know, depending on the case.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Yeah. You know, I’ve I’ve read a couple pieces about it being inherently conservative. And I do sort of somewhat disagree with that, as certainly now as as a modern mystery writer, where we really do give a lot of thought about who is our protagonist and who is going to be our sleuth who who’s who defines what order is. And oftentimes, you know, we have unmarried young women or or or queer people or, you know, you know, people who are in marginalized communities that were further marginalized in the time period where they’re being set, like Nekesa Afia where she writes, you know, a black female protagonist in the 1920s, and she’s put a lot of thought into, you know, the who and the where and the why in the setting. I can also totally understand why people are like, yeah, but then you give someone to the cops and they take them away. And it’s like, I get it. You know, this is such an interesting genre, I think, for modern times. And how we interact with how we talk about crime. Because we are definitely in the throes of an era where we are having very, very honest conversations about the mechanisms of justice, as you brought up earlier, and the values that we as mystery writers have that we want to see reflected back at us in in the movies and the television shows and the books that we’re writing.
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Emily Edwards (she/her): I ramble a lot and I apologize for that.
Jackie McMahon
No, it’s good.
Emily Edwards (she/her): It’s it’s one of the things that I genuinely love doing this show with people and talking to people who are also much younger than me about the books that they’ve they’ve written because I think that again, like romance can romance is a very sexy genre. You know, if you’re thinking about like, ooh, like girl power, like romance stuff, and I’m like I love romance. I’m glad people write it. But I think that mystery has a tendency to skew much older. And I’m glad that people who are much, much younger than me are are working in the genre because I think it’s only going to benefit, you know, the genre and the conversations that you can have if people who have essentially much more nuanced understandings of crime and justice are are writing the fiction on which we all sort of base our emotions. Okay. So I I have to ask a question. does the Cloak and Dagger Club have a sequel coming out?
Jackie McMahon
It does. So my sequel is gonna come out in July twenty twenty seven. I don’t think that I can say the title of it yet or anything.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Okay.
Jackie McMahon
but it is going to be a sequel following the same characters from the first book, the ones who haven’t been murdered or gone to jail.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Ha.
Jackie McMahon
And it is so it is inspired by Ronald Knox’s Ten Commandments for Detective Fiction. And I I don’t I think it’s gonna be fun. So yeah, I’ll make sure to check it out.
Emily Edwards (she/her): That is fabulous. How could how can everybody keep in touch with you and in the future when you’re gonna have pre order links and cover reveals and things like that? How about he how can everybody keep in touch with you and your work?
Jackie McMahon
Yeah, so they can follow me on Instagram or YouTube at Jackie Reads and Writes or visit my website, which is just my name, Jackie McMahon.com.
Emily Edwards (she/her): Awesome, thank you so much.
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