Author and editor Michelle Kubitz joins host Emily J. Edwards to discuss the movie that brought many back into the safe and comforting embrace of the movie mystery detective: Rian Johnson’s 2019 smash hit KNIVES OUT. It’s a comfort movie for both Michelle and Emily, and they chat about all of the revival of the mystery genre in film, the portrayal of the gentleman sleuth, and the social commentary in ‘Knives Out’. The conversation also touches on the work of Rian Johnson and the impact of mystery fiction on modern audiences.
Takeaways
- Mystery genre revival
- Gentleman sleuth
- Social commentary Political and social commentary in Knives Out
- The role of mystery fiction in modern storytelling
Chapters
- 00:00 Social Commentary in ‘Knives Out’
- 30:59 Exploring the Themes of Knives Out
- 53:07 The Impact of Mystery Fiction
Follow Michelle on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/michellekubitzwrite
https://www.threads.com/@michellekubitzwrite
Transcript:
Emily Edwards (00:01.196)
All right, everyone, greetings, gumshoes. Welcome back to another episode of Silver Screen Sleuths, the podcast whose name I have to slow down every single time I say it because I wasn’t thinking when I named the damn show. I am Emily Edwards, and I am your host, and we are here today with Michelle Kubitz. How the hell are you?
Shelley (00:23.567)
I’m doing okay. Thank you so much for asking and thank you for inviting me onto this show. I’m excited to be here.
Emily Edwards (00:30.868)
so excited to chat with you. I met you in person at Left Coast Crime earlier in 2026. And it was so you were so nice. I was scared out of my mind. And you were just like, Hello, friend, how are you? And I was like, Yay.
Shelley (00:47.017)
Thank you. Well, that’s, exactly. It costs nothing to be kind. Well, I mean, it costs some things, but I love people. like, you know, I like to be friendly. So it was wonderful meeting you.
Emily Edwards (00:55.32)
You’re so sweet.
Emily Edwards (01:03.438)
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It was so nice to meet you. And I do have to say that I love talking about mystery movies with mystery writers and mystery authors. So can you give us a little bit of a rundown on what you write, what you do, where people, like what’s going on with the careers?
Shelley (01:23.613)
Thank you. So, so, I have a couple different hats. I do still have a day job. I had a short story that was published a million years ago. It feels like, and, so short story is kind of my jam. I serve on the gauntlet for shotgun honey. That’s where we look at the slush pile of, flash fiction that comes in. And also later this year in September, I have an anthology of stories coming out.
that I’m co-editing with Lawrence Allen, who I believe was also a guest on your show. And yeah, it’s an anthology called Daydream Belieber and it’s crime stories that are inspired by the songs of the monkeys. So that has been such a fun process. Otherwise, in terms of writing, I am part of the great unpublished and trying to get the book written, query agents and all that fun stuff.
Emily Edwards (01:56.509)
Yes, he was.
Emily Edwards (02:05.678)
Awesome.
Emily Edwards (02:20.822)
You are not unpublished. Short stories count as publishing. I cannot write a short story to save my damn life. So I’m always impressed by people who can pull that off. It’s so difficult. You have so many constraints. It’s so hard to do.
Shelley (02:23.176)
that’s true. Thank you.
Shelley (02:37.841)
Well, and it’s amazing. And that’s been part of the fun with Shotgun Honey and the gauntlet, because that’s 700 words. And it amazes me sometimes what you can see people accomplish in 700 words. And the other thing that I love about the mystery genre in general, we have, I think, some of the best short story writers, just full stop.
Emily Edwards (03:02.19)
I really do. think that one of things that we’re going to dig into in this episode, when talking about Rian Johnson’s Knives Out, is that mystery was really treated for, I don’t know, 50 years as like a really sort of
subgenre. know, people didn’t give it consideration. It was things for fluffy old ladies. It was British television shows. It was an unserious genre of work for, you know, probably since like the 1950s when whodunit movies really fell out of vogue all the way up, I think, until Rian Johnson’s career, where he has clearly set himself up to revive the noir mystery, revive the
Shelley (03:24.201)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (03:50.84)
Private Investigator, you know, even going back into his first movie with Brick and things like that. You know, this was a genre that really did not get a ton of respect. And I’m excited to talk about these films with other writers because we know how much we can do with the framework of mystery.
Shelley (04:13.001)
Absolutely, and to your point too, I think that it is so exciting to see this resurgence and to really like, again, to see it also come alive in movies because I think even though this harkens back to, you know, it’s an homage to Agatha Christie or whatever, you know, whatever comparison people want to make it to,
It revives it for a whole new generation. And especially with somebody like Rian Johnson, who has a fan base. really like, again, as somebody who has, you know, I have kids of my own, the idea that they’re going to look back at this and watch it and be like, yeah, like, I think I can do that. That’s, I mean, that’s what I love about mystery. And that’s what I love about, you always hear about.
Emily Edwards (05:01.772)
Yeah.
Shelley (05:07.881)
Where do people discover? it Nancy Drew? Is it Trixie Belden? Is it, you know, is it the Hardy Boys? I love Trixie Belden. I am a Trixie Belden.
Emily Edwards (05:12.351)
Trixie, you’re the first name drop of Trixie Belden on the show.
Shelley (05:18.505)
You’re kidding me. so you know, it’s so funny. That is what, because everyone’s like, are you a Nancy Drew? I’m like, I’m a Trixie Belden. That’s just, by my family growing up, my grandfather was an auctioneer and we would always get these boxes of books. And they were always, you know, something that came out of grandma’s attic. And so for me, I always like, for some strange reason, big in the Midwest, Trixie Belden. So.
Emily Edwards (05:26.061)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (05:40.673)
Yup.
Emily Edwards (05:47.339)
Huge, huge. Like I remember my elementary school library only had like a handful of Trixie buildings. Of course they had all the Nancy Drews. And I was just like, Nancy does very little for me. And I’d have never been able to figure out why, but I read the Trixie buildings I had access to. I’ve mentioned this before on the show, but my big one was the babysitter’s club mysteries that were the spinoff. Yeah. Yeah. Read all of those.
Shelley (05:55.987)
course.
Shelley (06:09.001)
Yes! Yeah! Yeah! my gosh. mean, but isn’t it great? I mean, the thing is, like, I think every generation, I hope that every generation has something where they can like, you know, that gateway drug into the mysteries.
Emily Edwards (06:24.812)
Yes. Yes. You know, it’s so fun. And like, I love the fact that movies like Knives Out. They are surprisingly approachable for like tweens and teens. Like, if you are really concerned about, you know, like what your kids watch on television and in movies, like Knives Out is surprisingly child appropriate.
Shelley (06:51.697)
right? Well, it is, but and also though too generational because like that is something like I don’t think that I ever watched that movie with my parents who, them, they’re boomers. But it, but when you think about that cast and like who all they brought out, that is like, because okay, so I will tell you, I was so excited about Knives Out because there is this very strange intersection of loves for me.
Emily Edwards (07:10.346)
Yeah.
Shelley (07:21.769)
And it is Christopher Plummer. It is, I love Christopher Plummer. Christopher Plummer, Gordon Lightfoot, Sundown. Oh my gosh, I’m a huge Gordon Lightfoot fan. I remember watching that movie and I remember when that song queued up and my husband knows I’m a huge Gordon Lightfoot fan. He’s just like, okay, you’re gone. I’m like, like, I mean, perfect song, perfect moment.
Emily Edwards (07:24.63)
Yes, my God.
Emily Edwards (07:32.908)
Right?
Emily Edwards (07:46.573)
Yep.
Shelley (07:51.537)
And then I like Daniel Craig. So I mean, just like that movies and Jamie Lee Curtis.
Emily Edwards (07:59.075)
Yeah, I know, I know. And I have to admit that I am the perfect age for the fact that my first movie star crush ever was Chris Evans. I was so in love with him when I was 15 years old. He had a terrible, terrible Fox comedy television show where he was like one of the first three boys who got going to an all girls school. And it was him, Milo Ventimiglia and like some other and Kyle
I want to say. And it was like the hijinks that these three hot guys get into being the first three boys in an all-girl school that’s integrating. And I was so in love with him. It was ridiculous. And like, when I saw that he was going to be doing this and not like Captain America, which is for me kind of boring, like I was so excited. I was just like, my God, this is like, I’ve been waiting for this my entire life. And like, honestly, the cast in this
Shelley (08:30.963)
Okay.
Emily Edwards (08:58.23)
I know it’s said a million times, but it brings true. It’s phenomenal. Everybody delivers at all points.
Shelley (09:03.785)
Absolutely.
Absolutely. Well, so from your perspective then, so knowing, hilariously, so I swear there are just like years worth of TV shows that I have like missed out on, whether it was because I was too cheap to have cable or I was working the night shift or whatever. So I missed out on that whole Fox phenomenon. But so how did you feel watching Knives out? And like, I mean, and again, like he like he shows up on the screen and his name is Ransom.
which is, you know, of course his middle name, but like, like, like he is so, he’s so set up so perfectly. Yes. So like how, how, how did, how did your 15 year old heart take that?
Emily Edwards (09:35.874)
know. I know.
Emily Edwards (09:42.324)
Evil? Yeah.
Emily Edwards (09:47.875)
Well, what’s really funny is that I did not know this when I was 15, but he’s actually my friend from high school’s cousin, like in actual life. So like I’m from New England and everybody is related. And so like, I didn’t know that he was my friend’s cousin. And so like, had no, I, you know, like now that I know that he’s my friend’s cousin, like some of the shine gets, you know, taken off of these movie stars. But one of the things that I love about this movie is that it takes place in New England.
Shelley (10:09.001)
Yes!
Emily Edwards (10:17.182)
and really plays with the British conceit in cozy mysteries or private investigator mysteries, that family dynasty is incredibly important. And it was filmed all around a part of Massachusetts I am very familiar with. A lot of it was in like Natick and these really smaller suburbs of Boston. And again, I know that Chris Evans is from Boston. So I’m sure that’s another thing that really drew him to the script of just like,
playing with that waspishness, with that new money thing, with the closed nature of New England towns, all of that comes into play here. And I actually don’t know, and I should look this up really quickly, where Rian Johnson is originally from. But I didn’t think he was a Yankee, but he’s really good at playing with all of that. He’s from Maryland, so like the…
Shelley (11:00.679)
yeah.
Shelley (11:12.301)
so this is so he so he he understands he understands he understands the he knew he knew what he was doing. So yeah.
Emily Edwards (11:12.878)
you know, yeah, southern tip of the East coast.
Emily Edwards (11:23.554)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. like, you know, obviously mid-Atlantic different from the very, very, very Yankee, you know, culture, but, you know, people like to group all the small states together. And so he definitely understood what was happening in, in why he was setting it there. And so I think that’s really cool. So yeah.
Shelley (11:31.273)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (11:41.289)
Yeah, well, and it just, mean, it’s such a that whole house, the grounds, I mean, it’s just it’s such a visually again, I really in my rewatch.
Emily Edwards (11:50.446)
Yeah.
Shelley (11:56.797)
Because I mean, you know, that’s what that’s what I like about movies. And when I was younger, I was used to like, I have comfort movies. I don’t know if you have comfort movies, things that you go like, like you watch over and over and over again. And and I had not rewatched Knives Out until you know, in preparation of this. And it’s just like, the layers of like the props that they used. I mean, everything is sumptuous.
Emily Edwards (12:04.147)
yeah.
Emily Edwards (12:19.951)
How that movie did not win an Oscar for production design still makes me mad. The production design of that Gothic house was so spot on and so beautiful. again, there’s lines throughout the thing, like at the end where he goes like, ancestral home and Benoit Blanc laughs. was like, you bought this from Pakistani real estate developers in the 80s.
Shelley (12:28.137)
Yeah.
Shelley (12:42.665)
That was in 80s. Yeah!
Emily Edwards (12:49.773)
And just to know how much money Harlan must have put into making the house look like that in a scant 40 years adds a whole nother layer of detail to the movie. And you’re just like, gosh, dang it, Rian Johnson, you are so good at this.
Shelley (13:08.307)
Because yeah, up until that point, can really, you think to yourself, yeah, this is in the ancestral home. They’ve always lived here. and, and, but yeah, it really puts a spin on it where, you know, it’s so interesting because one of the things that like really struck me when I was watching this movie is just the entitlement of that family.
Emily Edwards (13:30.241)
It’s off the charts, man.
Shelley (13:32.041)
It’s just ridiculous. mean, like, and I don’t remember being so annoyed the first time I watched it, but this time I’m just like, my gosh, Michael Shannon, I expect more out of you.
Emily Edwards (13:39.981)
I know.
Emily Edwards (13:45.808)
Seriously, he’s so good in this that like Michael, there is no one who is a bad actor in this. And it actually like is frustrating because you want someone to be a weak link and there’s no one who’s a weak link. And Michael Shannon playing, he can do evil. You know what I mean? Like that man can do seething. I’m going to suck your soul out evil, but this isn’t that evil. It’s just,
Shelley (13:51.273)
I love Michael Shannon.
Yes.
Shelley (14:00.381)
No!
Shelley (14:07.264)
he can do evil.
Emily Edwards (14:15.465)
mediocrity and you it’s devastating. It’s devastating.
Shelley (14:20.359)
Yeah, yeah, well, it’s just the one. Okay, so but you know what? The one thing I really wish like, and of course, there was no room to do this. I really wish we could have seen more out of like the dynamic with his wife. And again, I don’t because like, there was such a spotlight put on Don Johnson and Jamie Lee Curtis’s that relationship and the infidelity. But but I’m just like, I found myself watching
Emily Edwards (14:35.734)
Yeah.
Shelley (14:49.321)
Michael Shannon, know, Walt and his wife. And I’m like, man alive. What is, what, what is, what is there? And I almost wish that they could have just given just a little bit more there.
Emily Edwards (14:52.706)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (14:59.789)
Yeah, what are they like when they go home? Because, you know, I think it’s Ricky Lindholm who plays his wife and she’s wonderful. She’s on Wednesday. Yeah, she’s really…
Shelley (15:11.417)
Okay. Again, another another zeitgeist that I’m missing out on. know I have I know that I have time, but it’s just there are so many wonderful television and wonderful movies and wonderful books.
Emily Edwards (15:23.383)
I don’t watch a lot of television. like, really, like, I’ve seen the first season of Wednesday and then I was like, that’s enough. Yeah, I’m good. Like, fantastic. Yeah.
Shelley (15:34.025)
Yeah, I, yeah, well, but it Steve Buscemi in it. That’s why I’m like, I need to get there because I speaking of Shannon, I mean, Boardwalk Empire. It is.
Emily Edwards (15:39.768)
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a type. Yeah, exactly. my gosh. That was a hell of a show. I was like, yeah. No, but like, yeah, but Knives Out, you know, I love it because the private investigator is such an incorrect. I don’t think it gets as much attention.
Shelley (15:49.127)
Yeah, right. Yeah, I know, right? Knives out. Knives out.
Emily Edwards (16:03.479)
Or like, you know, he’s the gentleman sleuth. He’s got the right up in The New Yorker, which like, why would The New Yorker be writing about a Southern gentleman sleuth? That would never happen. But of course, if any publication is going to be writing about a Southern gentleman sleuth, it’s The New Yorker, because who else is going to do it? But like, the gentleman sleuth is such a weird genre to play with right now, because like, there are no gentlemen.
Shelley (16:08.755)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (16:17.82)
Of course.
Emily Edwards (16:31.627)
Who has the means to do it? You know, cause he is getting hired. He is getting a chunk of cash, but that’s more of a private investigator thing. the lines are blurred, blurry lines. But like, so he’s getting paid. He’s got an envelope full of cash and he like makes the motion with his fingers that it’s a thick envelope full of cash. But he’s described as a gentleman sleuth. And it’s like, that’s such a weird combination because gentlemen sleuths.
do it for essentially the love of the game, whereas private investigators only do it for the money. So you actually have this conflict, I think, in the original Knives Out, it was like, is he doing it because he loves truth or is he doing it because he got an envelope full of cash in order to show up?
Shelley (17:18.377)
That’s a good question. Well, and so when you ask that or when you were when you were teeing that up, what it made me think of is how does how does that Gentleman’s Sleuth narrative and how does that play out? Because again, you know, thank you, Rian Johnson for giving us three movies. And I’m sure there will be Hollywood loves a franchise. They just do. They just do. So
Emily Edwards (17:37.486)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (17:42.425)
They just do.
Shelley (17:48.252)
it. I think you also one other one. Okay, I thought your question was going actually in a bit of a different direction. Because I well, I thought it was was knives out kind of got a little overshadowed because another gentleman sleuth made his way onto the silver screen once again, which would have been Kenneth Branagh in Murder on the Orient. And that was wasn’t that like so knives out came out in 2019.
Emily Edwards (17:57.175)
Answer that question.
Emily Edwards (18:11.651)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (18:16.752)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (18:17.225)
Orient, I think was 2018. I think. Gotta look that up. But anyway, but it was interesting because, so now I’m thinking in that context of what is it, you know, there are no gentleman’s sleeves now. Oh, was it 17? Okay.
Emily Edwards (18:20.037)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (18:30.288)
It was 2017. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Shelley (18:36.42)
Yeah, my gosh.
Emily Edwards (18:36.76)
Yeah, but people didn’t like it. They were like, like, I think when Branagh sort of decided he was going to bring back Poirot, like a lot of people were like, why? You know, it because Poirot, especially murder on the Orin Express, you know, is very like, we’re obscenely wealthy. are, you know, I like that. I like the Albert Finney movie. I’ve never seen the Branagh one because again,
Shelley (18:56.457)
Thank
Emily Edwards (19:03.854)
We also started getting into like purity of casting, which like, you know, there were some real scummy people in both the first one and the second one. Poor Kenneth Brenna.
Shelley (19:12.135)
Yes, unfortunately. We didn’t know that at the time. And no, I know, I hear you because I loved murder, but then things just happened. So poor Branaugh. I’m sure he’s going to be fine though.
Emily Edwards (19:26.008)
Yeah, yeah. You know when, exactly. I mean, you know when Branagh, who like a lot of people didn’t like him for a long time because he cheated on Emma Thompson with Helena Bonham Carter, and when that’s just seen as like, that’s normal compared to like the rest of the cast members.
Shelley (19:36.361)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (19:45.354)
Well, and it’s interesting because like Branagh, he’s always too. I mean, I’ve been like low key obsessed with him for a million years because my one of my favorite movies is dead again. And him and Thompson, Andy Garcia, I love Andy Garcia. That movie is so fantastic. But the thing was, is that he’s a young upstart. that was like, know, Britton didn’t know what to make out of him because, know,
Emily Edwards (19:54.724)
Much Ado.
oooo
Emily Edwards (20:08.943)
Yeah.
Shelley (20:14.331)
again, speaking of people who are fabulously wealthy, he came from none. You know, it’s almost the same thing with Daniel Craig, you know, like how dare he play James Bond? You know, he’s blonde and he’s… Exactly. But so to see these two, so to see these two men, although actually that’s interesting, I didn’t realize Albert Finney was in the original Orient. Like I need to…
Emily Edwards (20:18.745)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (20:24.002)
Right. Yeah. He’s very working class coded. He is like, yeah.
Emily Edwards (20:39.862)
Yeah, with like the really greasy mustache. Like personally, I think Suchet is the best Poirot, the television Poirot. And then I really like Peter Ustinov in the movies. I don’t like Albert Finney in Murder on the Orrin Express. I find that representation of Poirot to be really disgusting. Like he’s very greasy. He’s very sort of like uncouth. I pardon me, like I don’t like it.
Shelley (21:01.545)
I’m gonna have to find that.
Emily Edwards (21:08.9)
But Agatha Christie actually said that Albert Finney as Poirot in Murder on the Ornate Express was spot on for how she saw Poirot in her mind.
Yeah.
Shelley (21:21.297)
wow. Because like, I guess I mean, I’m a Finny stan too. gosh. Who, who, who don’t I love in this conversation? Because you say Finny, I think Millers Crossing and the best usage of, again, song placement, Danny Boy. Yeah, it’s just so gorgeous. But yeah, so, but bringing it back to the whole Knives Out thing. I love what you said about the Gentleman’s Sleuth.
Emily Edwards (21:24.11)
Yeah, I know.
Hahaha!
Emily Edwards (21:32.974)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (21:36.645)
yeah? Perfect. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (21:42.384)
Hahaha
Shelley (21:46.908)
And because you think about what do we see in contemporary mystery right now in terms of you got your Bosch, you got your like the grit is the grit is seems to be the goal. And to have this refinement. I mean, you know, I’m never sad to see it though, because again, it’s just it feels like that’s the knives out is the kind of movie you do like for me.
Emily Edwards (21:55.724)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (22:12.219)
If I had time, I can see it becoming a comfort watch because the sumptuous like that house, you know, just watching it over and over again to see the various layers. There’s so many things there that are just it’s just a treat for the brain and for the eyes.
Emily Edwards (22:17.079)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (22:24.398)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like everybody is there dressed to the nines. Like nobody is ever in like sweat, even though they’re hanging out with their family. Like, I don’t know, but I don’t wear suits and like heels when I’m around my siblings. Like, nah, like I’m wearing flip-flops, like, and sweatpants. Yeah, exactly. Is there a camera that I don’t know about somewhere? Like, it’s just ridiculous.
Shelley (22:43.901)
If I did that, my brother would be like, what’s wrong with you? Who died? Like…
Emily Edwards (22:53.55)
Yeah, and I personally am not super connected with grit lit. It’s not super high on my feelings to attain when I’m writing. I like the polish. I do really connect with this idea that the sleuth or the person who’s doing the investigating has this sort of nonviolent competence. It’s brain rather than brawn. They’re not gonna throw fists. And I feel like
Shelley (23:20.903)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (23:23.002)
Grit Lit has a tendency to be like, you know, like you read a lot and they’re always like, I’m a former Green Beret. And you’re just like, everybody was not a former Green Beret. it, stop, roll it back. They’re everywhere. I had no idea they were, it’s just lurking. Just everywhere I don’t go.
Shelley (23:33.193)
They’re everywhere.
Shelley (23:39.793)
You’re gonna go to grocery store and you’re gonna… They’re everywhere. They’re just hiding there behind the soda cases. They’re chilling out in the produce.
Emily Edwards (23:43.118)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Emily Edwards (23:49.664)
Exactly. All those Coke cans that they arranged to look like, I don’t know, like goalposts during football. And he’s just like…
silently, silently lurking to help me get my diet coke off the shelf. Exactly. Exactly. At my suburban California grocery store. But no, I love the polish of this. It’s so, okay, Daniel Craig’s accent is a little goofy. it is.
Shelley (24:02.889)
And just to make sure that you’re safe.
I’m going to protect the world. You never know.
Shelley (24:19.613)
The fog-horned leghorn.
Emily Edwards (24:21.7)
But the fact that they keep making fun of it or they have Chris Evans keep making fun of it while he still has, he turns on the Boston every now and then, like it’s not bad, but it’s there. And you’re just kind of like, really? We are going to have the subtle discussion of class distinction when it comes to Southern versus Northern, like Yankee versus Kentucky is happening here.
Shelley (24:29.821)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (24:37.715)
Get out.
Shelley (24:45.481)
Mm hmm. And again, so many layers, though, because because it’s not just it’s not just it’s interesting how the thrombles just it’s so much them versus the world. And as much as they have enough money or they did to, you know, all of them to be supported by daddy.
Emily Edwards (24:59.353)
Yeah.
Shelley (25:08.795)
It’s just really funny how they look so they look down upon anybody who’s not part of their rarefied air. And you know, they love Marta. But it’s just it’s
Emily Edwards (25:16.005)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (25:20.16)
The running joke of them not knowing what country she’s from is absolutely one of the funniest things I have ever seen on screen.
Shelley (25:26.569)
And again, there was something that I totally missed my first watch and then I’m like, I’m like, you guys are just, you’re abhorrent. You’re assholes. They’re assholes.
Emily Edwards (25:31.981)
really?
Emily Edwards (25:36.251)
They’re terrible. And I love the fact how actually they’re very respectful to the black police officer while being wildly disrespectful to Marta whom they pay because they know that he has power over them in some capacity. they don’t, they’re not terribly rude to him at really any point during the investigation, which is actually normally like a hallmark of
Shelley (25:54.279)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (26:03.792)
the attention.
Emily Edwards (26:05.24)
Yeah, the tension between. They’re just kind of like, no, you must do your job. It’s fine that you’re here, which I thought was actually a really interesting decision.
Shelley (26:13.589)
and it’s interesting too, like so how did how did none of the family absolutely like flip their lid that Harlan you know committed suicide? because i’m surprised that that wasn’t a bigger scandal to them like it was just like so sad Ransom didn’t show up for the the funeral let’s read the will
Emily Edwards (26:26.489)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (26:35.086)
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah, no, that’s a really good point because, you know, one of the things that I streamed this off of Prime, I do own the DVD, but I streamed it last night rather than dig out the DVD because I don’t know where it is somewhere in my house. And one of the things that I noticed while watching this, because this was the second or third time I’ve seen it, but it’s the first time I ever watch it with a commercial break because thanks Amazon, they got a shoehorn the commercial breaks in.
Shelley (26:49.225)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (26:53.181)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (27:05.556)
And when the first commercial break happened, it was kind of right after Harlan sets up the whole, here’s what you got to do and I’m going to slice my throat. Sorry, spoiler alerts to everybody. In order to like, you know, stop the, the investigation into you. And I paused it cause the commercials were kind of boring. had to feed my dog and things like that.
Shelley (27:19.793)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (27:31.949)
And I was kind of grumping around the house of my husband. And I was just like, it doesn’t make any sense that he would kill himself. If the drugs are gonna kill him in 10 minutes, wouldn’t, and she already explained that there’s going to be signs of an overdose setting in prior to the 10 minutes taking him out, you would just wait 10 minutes and be like, or like nine minutes.
and just be like, clearly I’m not overdosing. I didn’t get the 100 milligrams of morphine. And then the plot stops, and I was really cranky about it. And of course, then I watched the rest of the movie, and all of that is explained, but I was so pissed.
Shelley (28:18.149)
And it’s interesting. Well, so it was kind of fun on my rewatch. And again, I have this one nephew who I one time told him I was like starting some television show series. He’s like, he’s like, to be able to watch that again from the very beginning. He’s like, what a gift. like, well, that was really philosophical of you, my 27 year old freeloader, but keep going. He’s going to be like, the gift.
Emily Edwards (28:43.93)
What a gift.
Shelley (28:46.441)
But the thing is, like, I was really trying to remember, like it was fun because there were so many things that I remembered. But in my rewatch, I could not remember like exactly who did what and when and how and where. And so it was kind of, it was a gift to watch it again. But, but you know, it is interesting though too. Like I’m trying to remember like, cause I remember watching it for the first time.
Emily Edwards (29:05.614)
Yeah.
Shelley (29:15.177)
My husband and I have this tendency of we will catch up on all of the pop culture things that we’ve missed at Christmas. And during the holiday season, it’s just what we do. will become one with our couch and we will watch all of the things. Just once a year. And I remember the first time that I watched that. And I should not confess this as a mystery writer, but I will.
Emily Edwards (29:29.454)
That’s the way to do it.
Shelley (29:42.532)
I am one of those people, like if I’m watching CSI or if I’m watching whatever TV show it is, I never know who the murderer is. I don’t, I do not think that through. But whereas my husband will walk in and be like, he did it. And I’m like, okay, well, it’s, it’s not fair that the very visible guest star who is in everything is the murderer. I’m like,
Emily Edwards (29:50.407)
really?
Emily Edwards (29:56.686)
Yeah, exactly.
Emily Edwards (30:01.644)
Right. Like every Columbo episode ever. It’s like, recognize you from a movie from 1946, so clearly you’re the bad guy.
Shelley (30:08.745)
Oh, you must have done it. You’re the villain. But like, remember, like, one thing that I will say again, looking back, you know, trying to remember what it felt like in 2020, which is in the midst of the pandemic, like, or, you know, like, because I think that was part of it too, was I liked the social, the biting social commentary from some of the family members in terms of, you know, like, like how, how, how amazing.
Emily Edwards (30:23.408)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (30:33.876)
yeah.
Shelley (30:38.343)
that Rian Johnson came out swinging against an administration that was putting, you know, babies in cages and separating families that first time around. I just remember like, I remember being in awe of some of that and like, again, seeing that again, was like,
Emily Edwards (30:45.178)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (30:59.428)
Yeah. And nothing’s changed. It’s only gotten worse. Yeah, exactly.
Shelley (31:00.585)
Good, good. It’s going. Good art should always hold up a mirror and make you be like put you in some sort of discomfort. I mean, enjoyable art too, like, don’t get me wrong, I do love me some brain candy. I love I love frothy things. I’m all about that kind of thing. Although my comfort watch right now is Peaky Blinders.
Emily Edwards (31:22.927)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (31:31.022)
different kind of comfort. We all fantasize about beating the living snot out of people and there’s nothing you can do.
Shelley (31:34.634)
Well, same, same thing, though, like the other way. I told I think I told this to Larry Allen, Lawrence Allen, and he was just like, what is wrong with you? Because my other comfort is I love I love the John Wick movies. And so, yeah, so I mean, but anyway, yeah, this I mean, there’s something about it. I love I love frothy things, but I love me some John Wick and
Emily Edwards (31:50.951)
yeah, yeah, me too. Yep. Similar.
Shelley (32:03.757)
bringing it back to the Knives Out, Ana de Armas, who plays Marta, was in John Wick’s Ballerina. And I’m like, I’m like, okay, because like, it was funny, I didn’t recognize her when I was watching Ballerina. But then I’m like, who is that actress? I’m like, my god, she kicks ass. Holy, wow. She could take out Keanu.
Emily Edwards (32:09.09)
Yeah. Yes, she was.
Emily Edwards (32:19.31)
Yep. she kicks ass. She is not afraid of anything. for her to kind of come onto the scene with this very sedate movie, her role in it, aside from the just A plus level fake projectile vomiting that she managed to pull off, she’s very demure in this. She’s very meek.
even when she does start to stand up for herself, you know, at the behest of Harlan who suggests, you know, like you do this, this, this, and this, and she’s like, I can’t do it. And then all of a sudden she’s realizing like she has to erase the video tape. She has to mess up the footprints. She has to do all of these things. And Harlan didn’t tell her to do that. She figured it out herself. Like that sort of growth that happens is still, it’s a very quiet exercise of power. And I think,
That’s one of the most wonderful things. Like the moment in the movie where they’re having conversations about immigration and Don Johnson made, he did this himself. It’s not in the script and it wasn’t at the request of Ryan Johnson. He hands his empty plate to Ana de Armas who’s standing there, who he summoned over to talk about how she immigrated correctly. And then he hands her the dirty dish and she just takes it.
And you can tell in that moment that she’s just like, I would love to shove this down your throat, but I’m not going to because she’s doing the long, she’s so quietly powerful in this. honestly, like a couple months ago, I was researching something that I was writing and there’s a quote from Rian Johnson that goes around. It’s,
referenced in a couple different Guardian articles, and it honestly pisses me off. So, Ryan Johnson, who’s worth a hundred bajillion dollars and has a better career than I will ever have ever in my life, he said something that burnt my toast a little bit. And he was talking about Agatha Christie and how he grew up reading Agatha novels, and she’s the second best-selling author of all time next to the Bible. She’s just this incredibly powerful cultural thing that we’re always going to have to deal with in our lives. But he has a quote that says,
Emily Edwards (34:37.52)
She was not an incredibly political or socially conscious writer. And I just want to say, sir, that is bullshit. That is absolute horseshit because you don’t write mystery unless you’re a socially conscious person.
Shelley (34:52.169)
Well, going back to, and this is one of the things that I was reading about, because I was really, I was interested again, because we have lived a lifetime since 2019, let us be clear, we have had such a sea change of everything. And I really wanted to see how was, again, knowing that Orient came out in 2017 and you have Branaugh doing his thing. And then, I know.
Emily Edwards (35:03.407)
Yeah!
Emily Edwards (35:18.03)
Yeah, and it didn’t do well at the box office.
Shelley (35:21.737)
Well, it compared to Knives Out, which this helped catapult. This is part of Jamie Lee Curtis’s late stage career resurgence that, you know, obviously also includes her Oscar. But I was looking back to see like in 2019, how did people receive this movie? And did they understand the homage that Rian Johnson was doing, even though he doesn’t understand that? Yes, she has.
Emily Edwards (35:32.931)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (35:46.351)
Yeah.
Shelley (35:50.854)
social, political, all of the things. She’s socially conscious and aware. And it was really interesting because one of the criticism, one of the, I that wasn’t a criticism, one of the think pieces that I was reviewing was it was talking about how Rian Johnson gets what Agatha Christie did in terms of the storied family, those people of wealth.
Emily Edwards (35:52.719)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (36:13.882)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (36:15.353)
and the haves and the have-nots. And so for him to say that feels disingenuous because, dude, you nailed it with the haves and the have-nots. know, like, Agatha Christie must have been on to something to have created the worlds that she has that you wanted to help replicate.
Emily Edwards (36:24.92)
Exactly.
Emily Edwards (36:31.886)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (36:35.746)
Yeah, I think she I mean, I personally think she was more conservative than a lot of people who are writing mystery now she truly believed even though she was anathema to this in the like gender roles and she really did not like Jewish people and she was very racist. You read a lot of her books. But you know, to tie this into the Branagh sort of, you know, Poirot thing that’s been happening simultaneously with Rian Johnson’s movies is
Shelley (36:41.085)
Yes.
Shelley (36:52.723)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (37:04.592)
Halloween Party, the book that Haunting in Venice is based off of, is an extremely political book. It’s a completely different plot than what happens on screen. But just to, I wrote a thing about it on my website, which you can go and find. But the book is entirely about a slightly off-color,
somewhat sexually promiscuous teenage girl being murdered and how the entire suburban village that she’s living in being like, yeah, but she was distasteful. So we don’t really mind that she was murdered. And Agatha Christie and Poirot and Ariadne Oliver are really struggling with the fact that like everyone seemed to hate this little girl. And it’s not okay that she was murdered just because she was a modern little girl who like
didn’t follow the demure rules of like the 1950s, the 1960s that were that were changing in the moment. And it’s a deeply feminist political questioning book. Of course, that’s all thrown aside for the gorgeous like set pieces of Venice. And I really genuinely liked the movie. But it was like, this is a really political book. And so I’m just kind of like, why would you assume that someone who maybe didn’t tell you who to vote for or choose a political party?
Shelley (38:04.297)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (38:16.658)
you
Emily Edwards (38:28.624)
If you’re talking about justice, you’re talking about politics. And that’s just been, I don’t understand why you would say that Agatha wasn’t a political writer. If you’re talking about justice, if you’re talking about murder and you’re talking about politics, you are a political writer through and through.
Shelley (38:45.125)
Right. And again, like, hope he was misquoted, although he probably was not. We have these things on… These things are taped. So… No, yeah. Bless him and his hundred million dollar heart.
Emily Edwards (38:49.528)
Yeah, probably not. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (39:02.094)
Yeah, exactly. No, I am glad that, you know, I remember watching Brick, which is like his first movie. It’s a detective sort of neo-noir movie that came out starring Joseph Gordon-Levitt. It’s really, really interesting. you know, he made the movie when he was very young. It’s a really fascinating movie. And so it’s very clear that he has been obsessed with the mystery construct. Brick is, Joseph Gordon-Levitt is a teenage boy
Shelley (39:09.041)
never seen that one.
Emily Edwards (39:32.021)
And I think his girlfriend goes missing and he decides that he’s gonna sort of crack the case. It’s a little bit surreal and it’s, I haven’t watched it in a long time. And I remember it just being very kind of like fuzzy, cause it’s very dark, darkly lit, very darkly shot. And I only had a 10 inch CRT television for most of my life until I was in my thirties. I either didn’t have a television or I only had like a tiny, teeny, tiny one. So I barely remember this movie that I watched when I was in college.
but he’s playing a lot with community justice and again, not police-led investigations. again, he’s clearly very interested in the machinations of informal investigation, which I find to be an interesting thing coming from someone who is getting paid boatloads of money in order to make movies.
Shelley (40:19.293)
count.
Shelley (40:26.089)
gosh, well, so it’s so funny that you were talking, you’re talking about your teeny tiny little television. Okay, because think about how people are consuming media these days in terms of like, I go to the, like, you know, go to an airport, be on a train or whatever. And it’s like, people are watching things on their TVs. And I’m like, I’m like, you are going to make the eyeglasses industry a million dollars because, millions of dollars, not a million, millions. Because like, when you think about like, you know,
Emily Edwards (40:46.948)
Yeah.
Shelley (40:54.065)
When you think about how much media you can consume on a small screen, but they don’t realize we were the OGs, totally, you know.
Emily Edwards (41:01.104)
Yeah, my extremely low-fi $79 television from Sears. Like, I was very lucky because I know I saw Knives Out in the theater, and it was before everything shut down. And the encompassing nature of it is really something. You feel like you’re in the house. You feel like these people are there with you, and you really wish they weren’t.
And again, like being very familiar with the places where it was filmed and things like that. I know it’s real. Like I know that house is real. I know that that bumbling little main street where they go to like the derelict laundromat in order to find Judy Gemstone, who is like, I was like, where do I know that actress from who’s playing Fran? It’s Judy Gemstone from The Righteous Gemstones. She’s amazing. But like, I know that’s real because you know,
Shelley (41:40.178)
Yeah.
Shelley (41:49.065)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (41:55.237)
this tiny little town that they live in was probably a former mill town, like every single tiny little town in New England. And now that there’s no ball bearing mills in like this, it’s this derelict little town and it feels so incredibly real. And I was actually a little upset that that sort of veritas was kind of tossed out the window for glass onion. I have to admit like,
Glass Onion was great. The mystery was really good. Again, everybody in it is fantastic, but that verisimilitude is shot through the heart.
Shelley (42:30.983)
Yeah. Well, okay, so so I liked Glass Onion Kiss again, Edward Norton Stan, absolutely. And and in that whole again, one of the things I’ll say about Rian Johnson and his filmmaking process, his casts are just sublime. I mean, he’s just so many beautiful people. I will say I did not enjoy
Emily Edwards (42:39.022)
Absolutely.
Emily Edwards (42:49.86)
I don’t know how he does it, like, truthfully.
Shelley (43:00.669)
bringing up the dead man, the last one that he did. Wake up. You’ll have to watch it and tell me what you think. I, although it was interesting, speaking of like dream boats from days gone by, Josh Brolin had a main and well, mean, just again, some Swiss cast, you have Glenn Close, you have the hot priest from Fleabag. Just everybody was so, so gorgeous in it. But I really enjoyed Josh Brolin.
Emily Edwards (43:02.43)
Wake Up Deadman? I haven’t seen it yet. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (43:14.596)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (43:23.586)
Yeah.
Shelley (43:30.621)
But like I was just like, man. In bless Daniel Craig, feel like sometimes he has, obviously we know he has a chip on his shoulder. He’s always been the working class like underdog until of course it’s like, well, but you’re James Bond. But you’re James Bond.
Emily Edwards (43:30.788)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (43:46.596)
Mm-hmm.
but you’re also James Bond and you’re married to Rachel Weiss. Like, come on, bud.
Shelley (43:54.47)
Yeah, yeah. You are in that rarefied air of, like, you know, you and Rian Johnson and all the things. it’s interesting how his character, the Benoit Blanc, just keeps, like, he just keeps notching it up. And in but one of the sad things for me with the last Knives Out movie was that
I really felt like Daniel Craig took kind of a backseat. And I don’t know if that was something that was intentional, but it was really, really more about the ensemble cast versus the investigator himself. And you could probably look back onto Knives Out and say, well, yeah, it’s about the people who are trying to figure out what the crime is. We know who did it, but the why done it.
Emily Edwards (44:36.816)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (44:51.416)
Right. Yeah.
Shelley (44:52.942)
but there was not enough Daniel Craig in the last one in my, in my humble opinion.
Emily Edwards (44:58.83)
I think, I haven’t seen it yet, but I do think that it’s very difficult to strike a balance when you are writing Private Investigators or like Singular Sleuth, like he’s supposed to be so smart that he can figure it out without writing a superhero. I mean, we do a lot, or just harkening back to Agatha Christie, sometimes when you read Poirot novels, you do sort of get that moment
of Sherlockian where it’s like, well, if you didn’t know that arsenic interacts with this in this capacity, or like, I happened to know, know, like this, and you know, that sort of like not fair play mystery where you’re supposed to get all of the clues and the everyday person is supposed to be able to figure it out. And that’s like held up as like a biblical thing that comes down from Magatha Christie and all the great novelists.
Shelley (45:33.683)
You
Emily Edwards (45:57.659)
post Conan Doyle, because a lot of people were rightfully cheesed when Sherlock Holmes would show up and it was like, actually, I knew that he was heavily invested in this company. And you’re just like, no one else did, what the fuck? But.
Shelley (46:07.603)
You
Shelley (46:12.553)
Sherlock, you would not make it into the internet age. You would be…
Emily Edwards (46:18.736)
Seriously, he would be eviscerated and bullied off of Blue Sky. But it is very difficult to find that space where Benoit Blanc is not coming off as some sort of like super heroic Sherlockian know-it-all. He’s a person. Like he just is a guy. And I like that at the end of Knives Out,
Shelley (46:23.593)
Yes.
Emily Edwards (46:47.888)
You know, Marta goes like, how did you know that, like, I was involved in this in some capacity? And he goes, from the moment you stepped in front of me, because he could see the blood spatter on her sneakers. And that is a very human, tangible thing. We would just be like, oh, he must eat a lot of carrots. And like, you know, it is just super observant. But it’s very human. It’s terrestrial. You know that a person, you feel like that’s a real thing that a person can do.
It wouldn’t for a man in his late 40s or early 50s when they’re filming this, because them fellows are blind. I’m blind as a bat, and guys don’t take care of their eyes. But just as a sweeping statement. But I can see how it would be a struggle over the course of movies that people are going to scrutinize and look for the Easter eggs and look for the clues to maintain
Benoit Blanc’s level of infallibility without veering into this is dumb and why are you still doing it?
Shelley (47:55.498)
Well, so speaking of Easter eggs, so I did not realize this and there’s no reason why I would have probably like recognize this person. We were talking about, you know, how Brian Johnson has these amazing casts and like and you had talked about Joseph Gordon love it. I didn’t realize but one of the things I guess that’s a hallmark of
Emily Edwards (48:15.792)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (48:20.113)
Johnson’s movies as he will bring back. Like he has the cast that, you know, he has his, you know, returning. Yeah, exactly. But the attorney, the family attorney for is Frank Oz. Well, and it was so funny because like, of course, never like the last time I saw him in a movie was in the Blues Brothers from like, whatever year that was. And I mean, apparently he’s aged since then because
Emily Edwards (48:26.564)
go-tos. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (48:36.192)
Aha!
Emily Edwards (48:43.992)
Yeah.
Shelley (48:49.543)
but we all.
Emily Edwards (48:50.234)
since the early 1980s.
Shelley (48:53.385)
Oh my god, like, like, I’m watching the credits and I’m like, like, I told my husband, like, that was prank us. He’s like, um, yes. I’m like, I didn’t know.
Emily Edwards (49:04.62)
Yoda is the lawyer? Like, he’s the probate attorney.
Shelley (49:07.957)
He’s the pro-mate attorney! I thought that was so cool because, again, Frank Oz just… Like, that man has given so much joy to this world, so let us give him his flowers. But he doesn’t do enough. We need more Frank Oz in this world. And I just… I didn’t realize.
Emily Edwards (49:18.02)
Yeah. Yes. No. And I love the reading of the Will scene because he is, he’s so funny. The comedy in this movie, it can both like smack you in the face. Like the puking is really gross. It’s really disgusting. It’s very slapstick.
But my favorite, one of my favorite line readings in the entire movie was they’re like, but we’re still in our house. And he’s like, yes, the house is also left to Marta Cabrera. It’s perfect. It’s so, it’s shockingly subtle for the fact that he’s also Miss Peggy.
Shelley (49:50.537)
22 Dearborn.
Shelley (50:00.282)
I know, I know. just, it’s, what I realized it was him. I was just like, like, again, like, you know, Christopher Plummer, love him, love him, love him, love him since the days of, you know, ripping up Nazi flags. And so, like, to have, again, another hero of my childhood show up on screen, I’m like, thank you. This is why this is a comfort watch, right?
Emily Edwards (50:10.959)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (50:14.735)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (50:21.721)
I know.
It’s so comforting. I do actually think this qualifies as a comfort watch for me, even though I have not watched it like a dozen times since it came out. There is just something so, I do find mystery fiction to be very comforting. And that’s one of the reasons why I write it. It’s one of the reasons why I almost exclusively read it. It’s probably not great for my brain that all I ever read is murder mysteries. But Val McDermid, who very famous writer,
Shelley (50:40.935)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (50:54.288)
she’s written essays on, and this is now kind of considered a universal truth of mystery fiction, is that mystery is about resetting order. And so you have thrillers, which are very frequently about sort of setting things back into power. Like thrillers are very often, especially when you think of like 24 and it’s like, oh, the government thriller and things like that. And it’s like, a lot of that is about power, maintaining power, whereas mysteries is about resetting order.
Shelley (50:54.344)
you
Emily Edwards (51:23.35)
And I really love in this movie that he does not ever try to even glance in the direction that the thrombies keeping their money is a sense of order. It’s not. They are not meant to have it. They are not people who need that much power. This is completely unacceptable. The orderly thing is for the kind woman.
to get her just desserts. And that’s just, it’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful piece of writing and it’s so calm and gentle at the end.
Shelley (51:54.986)
Well, and I love that part at the end where, you know, Marta is asking Blanc, do you think, you know, what should I do? And should I help them? like, again, the thing about Marta, what a pure soul. What I mean, like, again, for as much as all of the things that she internally accused herself of and all of that, what a pure soul and
Emily Edwards (52:11.461)
Yes.
Shelley (52:23.357)
I think Blanc always saw that, again, with the blood on her sneakers. I really like, you know, what I like about Blanc is just like, well, I have my opinion. But like, you know, he’s just like, he’s like, you will choose the right thing to do. And I liked the agency that he gave her in the end. Like, I really think that one of the things that I really like about Blanc throughout this movie is, you know, is he the smartest guy in the room? All of these things.
Emily Edwards (52:25.487)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (52:37.316)
Yeah.
Shelley (52:51.485)
but he lets other people have that agency as well. And it just, again, that part at the end, well, I have my opinion, but you will choose the right thing. And I do like that the right thing is that she’s sitting up, standing up on that balcony with that mug.
Emily Edwards (52:55.097)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (53:01.902)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (53:07.768)
huh. huh. And I think one of my favorite things about this movie too, is that he never specifically says, you know, like what Harlan did to you was awful. Like, but you can tell that he has, once he finally gets the proof that she did not poison him and Harlan could have just waited, you know, that thing that I was talking about earlier, where it was like the trauma that Harlan put.
Marta through, even though Marta is the one he loved, the one he cared about, the person he wanted to protect and to take care of, Harlan put her through something truly, truly detestable. And I think, you know, not, and not even just like the being the center of the family squabbling over money, just like seeing someone you love cut their own throat is a horrifically traumatic experience. And, and
Benoit Blanc’s heart is just like, cannot believe all of this happened to you and you’re still a good person. You’re still trying to take care of people. that, and he, you can tell that he’s just like, thank God you have money because that might be the only thing that actually protects you for the rest of your life.
Shelley (54:22.493)
Yeah. Well, and I love that part. you know, speaking about, you know, like the money and what it ends up affording you, et cetera. One of the things that I love was that scene with Michael Shannon Walt when she’s trying to sneak out of her apartment and he confronts her and he’s like, you know, we’ll take care of you. You know, we have, we’ll get you the right attorneys and all of these things. And she’s like, well, now that I have the money, I can take care of myself. that.
Emily Edwards (54:34.768)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (54:50.606)
Yes.
Shelley (54:51.689)
I don’t know what my fair part of the movie is, but that actually is up there because you see this bit of fire with Marta that’s just like, my gosh, thank you. Thank you, you know, for doing that.
Emily Edwards (55:01.356)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. There is a, like, you know, we all talk about save the cat, the save the cat formula when we’re talking about writing and plotting and things like that. And she is true, like that moment where she is being surrounded by news cameras, people have threatened her mother that like endlessly, her mother is being used as a pawn. She’s not even treated like a real person with agency who loves her daughters, whose daughters love her back.
That Dark Knight of the Soul moment when he’s just like, I will get your mother deported. And that immediate moment where she’s just like, you have no power, is so beautiful. like that, it’s rare that a, like the Dark Knight of the Soul moment only lasts like three seconds. Cause know, Wal is threatening her and you’re just like, what is he gonna do? Is he gonna hit her with the cane? What’s he gonna do? And the,
Shelley (55:44.521)
you
Shelley (55:56.869)
out.
Emily Edwards (55:57.957)
The moment where she’s just like, my God, this man is threatening my mother. It doesn’t last very long. And it’s so good that he doesn’t let her stew and linger in the all is lost territory. Marta is not someone who revels in hopelessness.
Shelley (56:17.193)
She’s looking for solutions. She’s, I mean, she’s a caretaker. She’s, she’s a caretaker. She’s solutions oriented. And the other thing too, that I like about Blanc, he gives her her flowers in terms of, she understood what the viscosity was of, you know, morphine versus whatever the other, the other medication was. Like she is so, she’s very smart. She’s very quiet. And she has this really strong moral compass.
Emily Edwards (56:21.69)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (56:32.345)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (56:36.24)
thing, I guess, yeah.
Emily Edwards (56:46.884)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (56:47.145)
And, and, and, and, and Ryan Johnson created a character that is so easy to root for. I mean, you know, in, in what I like about it, shows itself in quiet moments. It’s, it’s, you know, it just like, it’s like, whew.
Emily Edwards (57:01.22)
Yeah. Yeah.
And you know, I think that’s also something that he really consciously did with Benoit Blanc. also, again, this also happens in Glass Onion, which is Blanc has, and this is what I think makes him a gentleman sleuth and not a private investigator, is that like, he has so much compassion for the women who hire him in those two movies. Again, I haven’t seen Wake Up Deadman yet, but he is just like, you are being wronged, and I will put myself into incredibly dangerous and uncomfortable situations.
in order to help two women of color who are being grossly abused and misused by powerful people. And it’s not subtext. he, Ryan Johnson is here going like, my gay white man is going to sacrifice a lot of comfort and prestige and money and whatever in order to help these two women of color. And again, haven’t seen Wake Up Dead Man yet, not commenting on that one. But like, it’s a beautiful thing that Ryan Johnson is just like,
I will not shy away from this. This is the text of the movie. And I think that’s what really drives him into gentlemen’s loop territory and not private investigator. He doesn’t need the money. He doesn’t care. I’m sure he likes the money, but that’s just, that’s not the driving force behind Benoit Blanc.
Shelley (58:18.301)
Yeah, no, I like I really do. I’m glad that it’s nice to have again, you know, comparative to the grit. It’s really it is really nice to to have that as something to be able to like, like jet into that world every once in a while. And it just, again, it makes it a comfort watch in terms of everything’s going to be okay in the end. You know, and
Emily Edwards (58:27.076)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (58:43.717)
Yeah.
Shelley (58:45.737)
And in the midst of all of it too, there’s this great story, kind of convoluted at points, but at the same time though, that’s part of the humor, that’s part of the construct. And again, just grateful that it’s something that my kids will watch someday and enjoy. And it’s just one of those things where, and I also like, cause I was thinking about the whole,
Emily Edwards (58:58.692)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (59:08.386)
absolutely.
Shelley (59:14.375)
You can read an Agatha Christie book and you are transported to a moment in time. We are going to be able to look back, I think, at Rian Johnson’s movies. by the way, don’t do anything stupid, Rian Johnson, other than what you just said. Come on, just don’t just don’t do anything bad because I love your movies. Be cool. Be cool, Rian Johnson. But but we’re going to be able to look back because again,
Emily Edwards (59:26.958)
Yeah, seriously, like, hold it together, man. Yeah, be cool with your cool wife and that’s all we ask of you.
Shelley (59:44.286)
you know, knives out. just, when it came out, what it said about the political situation that we are in the world today, same thing with Glass Onion, Edward Norton’s character. Maybe he matches some other tech icons that we know. Hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:00:00.247)
I can’t imagine that that was pointed towards literally three people we can all name.
Shelley (01:00:06.985)
It’s so, mean, isn’t it interesting to think someday that like future generations, again, I always think, you know, art at its finest is one of those things that you can hold up X amount of years later and say, this is indicative of the time that it was made in. And that’s going to be that’s going to be these movies. And did Johnson intend to swing for those, you know, those bleachers when he went into it? I think so. Yeah, I do, too.
Emily Edwards (01:00:17.572)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:00:32.112)
Yeah, and I think you nailed it. Yeah.
Shelley (01:00:36.295)
I do too. the thing is, like, if you know, even if you aren’t necessarily like, even if you are the Don Johnson character, you’re going to have feelings when you’re watching this movie. It’s going to be probably different than yours and mine, Emily, but you know, just a little bit.
Emily Edwards (01:00:45.978)
What a schmuck. Yeah. Yeah.
Probably. Just a scooch.
my gosh, I can’t thank you enough for choosing this movie. Like I was wondering if anybody was gonna have the the chutzpah to choose Knives Out because like they’re so modern. They’re still, they’re probably still being made and like they’re very political. And I’m so glad that we got to talk about it and compare it to like the more like Mystery Ain’t Dead. And I’m so glad that Rian Johnson brought it to.
Shelley (01:01:19.55)
No.
Emily Edwards (01:01:23.14)
more modern audiences and put it in a modern lens. It’s just, thank goodness it happened.
Shelley (01:01:30.237)
Yeah, absolutely. And especially too, again, when you thread it with the needle of, know, the Agatha Christie movies like started, you know, had their moment. Poor Kenneth Branaugh although I’m sure he’s fine.
Emily Edwards (01:01:40.676)
Nearly simultaneously, yeah.
Emily Edwards (01:01:45.253)
Yeah. He’s still very handsome and he played Meryl Streep’s husband in Devil’s Wear’s Prada 2 and he can probably chill it with the brand, with the Poirot, but that’s okay. yeah.
Shelley (01:01:50.721)
gosh.
Shelley (01:01:55.197)
I haven’t seen that yet.
Shelley (01:02:00.01)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, I mean, it’s really one of those things where I’m glad it just I’m glad it exists. And, and again, I remember watching Knives Out in 2020 in the midst of, you know, all of the awful pandemic stuff that was going on. And it really was, it was a great escape for the time. And, and, and really truly to one of those things where it’s like,
Emily Edwards (01:02:22.446)
Mm-hmm.
Shelley (01:02:29.447)
It’s a good movie for anybody I think who like, it’s always nice when you see those movies where you can hit like, yeah, save the cat, dark night of the soul. It’s a good movie to look at and try to figure out how did how did Rian Johnson do that? And that’s always enjoyable.
Emily Edwards (01:02:38.074)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (01:02:44.792)
Yeah. Woo. Shelly, how can everybody keep in touch with you and your work?
Shelley (01:02:52.733)
Well, so I am I am probably more active than I need to be on the socials. I keep trying. I keep trying. But my gosh, that Instagram, I tell you, it just gets me every time. I think if I watch it long enough, I’m to be able to paint, you know, maybe able to weave my own rugs and I’m going to be able to cook. I’m going to be able to make
Emily Edwards (01:02:56.88)
Yeah, guilty. I know.
Emily Edwards (01:03:13.262)
also be able to get my pit bull to do cute tricks. Like, no, it’s not going to happen. Mm-mm.
Shelley (01:03:16.057)
Yeah, exactly. So I think I’m at Shell Cubits, right? That’s how you could find me at most everything. Otherwise, I’m going to be at VoucherCon in Calgary. Hopefully people will come and say hello. And yeah, good. Well, so make sure you okay, watch the last Rian Johnson. Wake up the dead man. Is that what was called? Wait, wake up. See? Just terrible.
Emily Edwards (01:03:32.26)
Yes, I will be there. We’ll be probably chilling out together a little bit, so.
Emily Edwards (01:03:42.133)
Yeah, wake up dead man. Yeah.
Shelley (01:03:46.441)
Watch that third, watch that third Knives Out movie and I would love to hear what you think because I just, I think I’m the only person on the planet that didn’t like it. Even my husband liked it. So anyway.
Emily Edwards (01:03:59.472)
Okay.
Emily Edwards (01:04:03.268)
Why is this subtext if that is, and he has no taste?
Shelley (01:04:07.433)
The subtext was he was just like, he’s like, you love these movies. You didn’t like this one. And I’m like, maybe I’m an idiot. just, I shouldn’t admit that as a mystery writer.
Emily Edwards (01:04:11.012)
Yeah. Okay. No. Okay. Well, we’ll have a little pow wow at Bouchercon later on this year. So if you’re listening and you’re gonna be at Bouchercon, come find us and we’ll have a, we’ll find an empty conference room or maybe the bar and talk about it.
Shelley (01:04:24.809)
Just
Shelley (01:04:30.281)
Exactly. You know what? Great things happen when writers get together and chill out over either a cup of coffee or a cocktail or a mocktail. Whatever works. We’re multifaceted that way.
Leave a Reply