Award-winning author of SHE’S A LAMB!, Meredith Hambrock, joins host Emily J. Edwards for the discussion of our first-ever TV limited series, MARE OF EASTTOWN. The 7-part series, starring Kate Winslet, Jean Smart, Julianne Nicholson, Evan Peters, Guy Pearce, and Caily Spaeny, is a bleak and oftentimes harrowing exploration of life in a struggling small town in eastern Pennsylvania. While never flinching away from poverty, drug addiction, abuse, and sexual assault, the show ultimately has a brilliant ending for its dedicated audience.
Find Meredith Hambrock on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meredithhambrockbooks
Find her podcast, The Novel Writers, here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-novel-writers-podcast/id1895741150
Transcript:
Emily Edwards (she/her) (00:00.767)
Greetings, Gumshoes, and welcome to another episode of Silver Screen Sleuths. My name is Emily Edwards, and I am here today with TV writer and award-winning novelist of 2022’s Other People’s Secrets and Twenty the Uncredible, if you have not read it yet. 2025 hit She’s a Lamb, Meredith Hambrock How are you?
meredith (00:20.419)
I’m great. How are you? That was such a good this is my first thing that I’ve done since I won a prize. So it’s cool to you.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (00:25.979)
Since you won a hu see, I feel like from a Christmas story, it’s it’s a major award. Like, congratulations. It’s so cool and you’re so well deserving.
meredith (00:35.296)
thank you so much. Yeah. I mean, man, it’s like waiting for this stuff is so hard. So I’m just feeling a mixture of happiness and also just like a smidge of relief. Just the waiting is over.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (00:45.275)
Yeah.
Like even when you lose, you’re just kinda like, thank God, that’s over. But you won, you won, you won.
meredith (00:55.628)
I know, I know. I feel like in like three months I’ll be like, Wow, I won.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (00:59.411)
Yeah. You get to slip that into conversations with people you don’t like from now on. It’s gonna be great.
meredith (01:07.566)
Yes, my gosh, yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:10.187)
But if you if you haven’t picked up She’s a Lamb, I read it literally in one sitting. It’s one of the most intense, incredible books I’ve ever read. Like it is such a feat. And I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to chat with me on this goofy little show.
meredith (01:25.486)
I loved goof, believe me. I know it’s such a it’s a real dark comedy of a book, but people always are surprised who know me. They’re like, What? Like you’re not this is not you at all. But yeah, it’s my speech.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:32.713)
Yeah Crap, no, I don’t want to be alone in an elevator with you.
meredith (01:38.798)
I feel like most crime writers have better like this though. Like they’re very you meet them in person and they’re just like funny and insightful and goofy and lighthearted and they save all of the darkness for their work.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:53.948)
Yeah, definitely. Like I after I wrote a couple of things that were really, really dark, people were like, Emily, you’re you’re the most Connecticut person ever I’ve ever met. And it’s just like, Yeah, I know, but it’s what we think Exactly. It’s what we think about and then we’re polite to your face.
meredith (02:02.174)
I
I read the news, yeah.
meredith (02:12.334)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (02:13.747)
I do have to say you are also the co-host of an incredible podcast that I have been listening to that is wonderfully helpful for anybody who does actually write, even if you’re new or old or established. Can you tell us a little bit about the novel writers?
meredith (02:26.58)
Absolutely. So yeah, I’m the co-host of the novel writers podcast with Brianna Lebuscus, who she writes commercial thrillers and I write more literary leaning thrillers. It’s just sort of how we are pitched by our agent, basically. And so we thought getting together to talk about craft and to have a podcast for writers solely focused on writing, you know, different craft topics would be just a great way to fight some of I always like feel like there’s a huge
Emily Edwards (she/her) (02:39.434)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (02:54.006)
especially now emphasis on like publishing industry chatter and this helped me fight that. And Brian Bree is also just like such a she’s so talented and she also is really talented historical fiction novelist and she really, you know, was like there really is no one way to one one way to write a book. And so we really like to bring that perspective into our conversations about craft and
Emily Edwards (she/her) (02:57.416)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (03:19.538)
share that with folks in a way that is, you know, free, accessible, and fun, hopefully.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (03:24.231)
No, it it’s really fantastic. It’s one of those things where I I did sort of study writing in my like bachelor’s degree, but I was really po focused on the publishing aspect because in 2003 to 2007, when I graduated, they were like the only way you’re ever gonna make money in the world if you’re a writer is if you go into publishing. And it turns out there’s no money in that either, because the magazine industry folded the second I walked across that stage with my diploma. But like
meredith (03:45.641)
Right.
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (03:50.91)
So, you know, but I do think you’re right that so much of the chatter on social media right now is very much and in the community, because that’s the only one the main place where most people turn to the community of writers is like, well, if you just crack this one marketing tip, then you’re going to get published and you’re making a bajillion dollars. And it’s like, no, you do actually also have to know like what it’s like to write a book and how difficult it is and all the different elements of it that fan together.
meredith (04:19.246)
Absolutely. I think there is this, yeah, like there, you know, I also love industry chit chat, so I don’t want to be too like hard on that side of it. It’s fun and addictive and because industry the industry of publishing is so opaque and so you know, pulling back the veil on that I think is totally worthwhile. but at the same time, I you know, Brie and I are of this sort of sort of same belief that if you just write a really great book, like it’ll find its audience, you know.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (04:26.944)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (04:32.543)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (04:46.334)
all like, you know, more often than not, and we’re really just like proponents of like focusing on that side of it and growing in craft and and I know it can be such a frustrating and heartbreaking industry. but yeah, it’s almost like the only way to cope sometimes is to really just like focus on what you can control, which is like writing a really great book. yeah, so that that is like the thing that I try to do to inspire myself in. you know, She’s the Lamb was a novel that is like a little
Emily Edwards (she/her) (04:59.061)
That’s very true.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (05:06.62)
Exactly.
meredith (05:15.622)
Odd. And it was it’s a little odd in its pitch. It’s like about a frustrated actress who she’s like desperate to be Maria and the sound of music, but she can’t get cast, and so she takes a job as a childminder, and then she just sort of decides she’s gonna be Maria. and it’s sort of a thriller, it’s sort of like it has some horror elements to it. it’s a dark comedy, it has like kind of intense psychological narration, but it’s also
Emily Edwards (she/her) (05:16.491)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (05:42.208)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (05:42.977)
me like it it struggled to find a niche, but I think the fact that it didn’t fit into a niche kind of helped it find readers who are super passionate about it. So I mean I was lucky that we have a great independent publisher in Canada named ECW Press that kind of they you know took a shot on it had a great editor and then an awesome team of people who are excited to
Emily Edwards (she/her) (05:59.722)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (06:05.934)
promoted and so like that all really really helped but like it’s so different from the big five and I attribute a lot of the success of that book to readers and also just to following my own almost like naive a a great book even if it wasn’t you know a perfect fit for publishing yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (06:20.088)
Yeah, I know I know what you mean.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (06:28.743)
Exactly, exactly. But no, that’s actually really an excellent segue into talking about the the TV show that or really a mini series that you chose to talk about for the show today, which is Mare of East Town, which you know, we were chatting a little bit before we started recording, which was like, we forgot how bleak this is, and we forgot how just how almost like oppressively, you know, and unhopeful it can be.
And honestly, I think it’s really almost it’s a completely almost genre busting sort of seven hours of television because it does not, you know, ever try to fit itself into the law and order or Columbo or, you know, even the the sort of pretty little, you know, my gosh, like the a thriller. It’s not a thriller, it’s not a police procedural, it’s not a mystery, it’s just a beautiful, beautiful like.
crime focused miniseries. That was a little meandering, but okay, no, we’ll get there.
meredith (07:30.625)
No, absolutely. I mean, I yeah, like she the the lead is a detective, but it does break down, I think, and sort of ignores some of the sort of traditional tropes of like a detective story and is intensely character focused and is intensely focused on the interior life of the lead character, which I found to be like really, really fascinating. and I think what really drew people to it and what kind of kept people
Emily Edwards (she/her) (07:43.434)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (07:56.705)
invested in it throughout all the bleakness because the specificity really it almost felt like you were watching real life unfold. It was like yeah. So it’s like set in a small town, I think in Pennsylvania, right? And I don’t know a ton, I’m Canadian, so I like my American geography is not great, but it it has like this almost, you know, you said oppressive bleakness. And I think a lot of the sort of oppressive feeling comes from
Emily Edwards (she/her) (08:03.059)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (08:11.221)
Yep. Yeah.
meredith (08:25.56)
The d lead detective is Mare and she, you know, works for the police and she is intensely socially interconnected to like everybody in town. Like everybody knows her. They call her on her personal cell phone all the time. They sort of ignore, you know, the you know, the normal procedural police stuff just because they’ve known Mare her entire life, kind of for better or for worse.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (08:42.409)
Yeah.
meredith (08:52.216)
And there’s some really f you know, like darkly funny moments. There’s like a, you know, at one point she arrests a suspect who’s a, you know, I think teenage girl or recently graduated teenage girl who had assaulted a young woman who dies in the first episode, and they have that on video. And so she arrests this teenage girl at work because she’s kind of a bully in mare, is like, I want to teach her a lesson. She’s kind of fired up about it too.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (09:04.189)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (09:16.517)
She’s an asshole.
meredith (09:20.11)
And you know, so and so then she has this big blow up with the girl’s parents who own this restaurant because she’s coming into the restaurant, she’s embarrassing them, and then they come to her house later, I think, and like the dad is screaming at her, and like something happens, and then the mom kind of apologizes. and Mare’s mom comes outside and she’s like, Yeah, you want a beer? You want to come in for a drink? So we get a sense that like we’re almost watching like a family drama unfold with all of these people who are so interconnected.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (09:43.283)
Yeah.
meredith (09:49.065)
in their relationships, which added this like layer of complexity to this series and this mystery that I don’t think anyone had really ever seen before, or at least, you know, it like to this extent.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (10:02.751)
Yeah, I think one of the things that I’m from Connecticut, so it’s very close to Pennsylvania, but I don’t know Pennsylvania very much at all. it it there’s a definite delineation between like the New England states and then Pennsylvania is often basically treated as though it’s kind of its own thing or paired with New Jersey. But like southern New Jersey, it’s it the state sort of cultures can be very, very disparate, even though we’re all crammed together in a tiny little space. And I really do appreciate how much.
This the writer of this show, who one writer who created it, his name is Brad Inglesby. And it wasn’t based on a book, it wasn’t based on a novel, it is just a it’s a television show that he pitched and wrote the whole thing. he really dedicated to capturing that extremely sort of upper, lower class, lower middle class divide that happens,
In a lot of places, but most people don’t think that actually exists in the northeast of the United States. Everybody I I have run into a lot of people who think that everybody who lives in the Northeast is just some magically wealthy waspish, you know, has a sailboat, l goes, you know, is shortlisted to go to Yale, like that kind of mentality. And it’s like, no, a lot of that area is old mill towns. If y there was a river running through your town, it means your town once made
My I grew up in a town that made hats and it didn’t have any economy. Once hats were no like literally the town didn’t vote Democrat for like 60 years because JFK made hats unfashionable and the town collapsed on itself. I’m not even joking.
meredith (11:42.989)
my gosh, I shouldn’t laugh, but that’s funny. Hats are just sort of inherently kind of funny. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (11:47.564)
it’s hilarious, but it’s like JFK stopped wearing hats in the nineteen sixties and my town stopped voting Democrat. Like that’s that town. And you’re just like, you don’t think that those things exist in places where it’s like, in Philadelphia, where you know the Philadelphia story and Kate you know, Catherine Hepburn is so well known for playing like these rich, rich people. And it’s like, nah, there’s just, you know, broke ass struggling people everywhere.
And and Inglesby captured that unbelievable struggle so well. It’s like they’re not on the verge of being destitute or homeless or being unable to feed their kids. It’s just life isn’t easy and they know it.
meredith (12:29.294)
Totally. And I think what was something that was quite brave about this work is that I think he really dove headfirst into showing what I feel is a fairly accurate portrayal of how the opioid crisis has changed pounds of working class and low income Americans, I think, in a very heartbreaking and raw and sometimes terrifying way. I think we see three plot lines maybe of that are influenced by the opioid crisis. She
Emily Edwards (she/her) (12:42.453)
Yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (12:54.282)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (12:58.158)
You know, currently in the story, she has a friend. Mare has a good friend who whose brother has addiction issues and is sort of her friend is dealing with that kind of conflict, you know, full on. and it complicates the mystery for Mare. and then we learn later on that Mare’s son had you know, was also suffering from addiction. and we see some truly hor like terrifying scenes of what that was like for her.
and then we also see May’s, you know, her Mare’s son had a son, and so she has her grandson at home. the mother of her grandson has recently been released from prison, I think, and is now in recovery and is trying to regain custody of her son. And Mare sort of has to learn to forgive her for all of the things that happened, you know, when her son was still alive. I think those are the main, and then we sort of meet some.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (13:33.93)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (13:56.983)
sex workers who I think you know, sometimes are in and out of you know, opioid use as well and how that impacts them. So there’s a full, I think, root you know, honest, gritty understanding of this heartbreaking type of drug and the impact that it has on folks in these towns and, you know, why some of them almost are forced to use it to, you know
Emily Edwards (she/her) (13:58.541)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (14:23.124)
Yeah.
meredith (14:23.874)
But also how there, you know, they sort of mention at one point there’s a young woman who got struck by a vehicle. and she was put on an opioid and then immediately, you know, when she was trying to recover from being struck by a vehicle, you know, kind of became addicted to it. And it kind of, I think, was a great way to just show that it could happen to anybody to really help us, I think, build empathy kind of outside of because they’re showing such violent scenes sometimes between Mare and her son when he was in the throes of
Emily Edwards (she/her) (14:40.225)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (14:45.034)
Yeah.
meredith (14:53.632)
addiction and also I think it’s out, you know, he had some fairly large mental health issues that influenced it, but it tried to really show a full picture. yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (14:57.908)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (15:03.156)
Yeah. I think that a a lot of fictional depictions of addiction, especially through the lens of crime, because you know, we we so thoroughly, you know, have made any sort of access to addiction counseling or addition addiction treatment through the penal system in America’s. You have to get arrested for it basically in order to unless you’re extremely wealthy and can afford to, you know, pay off the courts and go to private addiction counseling.
But I think this show does such an excellent job of removing the lens of criminality through it. Even though Mare is a cop, you know, and she she is a she has been she’s a cop. That’s what she’s specialized, she’s moved up through the ranks. She’s not a beat cop. She is a detective. She is fairly high up in the station. but they do a really excellent job of removing almost like
the sexy, violent appeal of being involved in drugs. You know, oftentimes in Gritlet, you read about there’s never anybody who ha i is involved in narcotics or inv involved in addiction who doesn’t know how to use a knife and fight and you know, it’s just like, they’re they’re working their way up or they’re gonna get, you know, taken out by the drug lord. And that’s like this our whole, you know, war on drugs concept of what drugs do to America. And really it’s just
No, people get addicted and it’s sad and their families miss them. And it can it can be violent, it can lead to violence, but more often than not, it’s just the the the this the heartbreak of it is so much better captured in this show than almost any other show I think I’ve ever seen that’s tackled the opioid addiction crisis.
meredith (16:49.322)
Yeah, like absolutely. And I think like one of my favorite beats of this story. I’ve calling it favorite is you know, it’s tough because it’s so sad. Well, something that I thought was like really empathetic. And I I like I love that Mare sort of has this character arc of you know, growing to in her own way try to so, you know, emotionally kind of forgive her, the mother of her grandson, as she comes out of, you know, she’s in recovery for addiction and she gets
Emily Edwards (she/her) (16:56.395)
Yeah.
meredith (17:18.284)
multiple jobs and she’s so exhausted at the multiple jobs that she has to work in order to claw her you know, claw her way out of this that she ends up using drugs again just to try to stay awake so that she can potentially get custody of her son back. Because she has to be able to provide a a home for him. But like how do you do that when these, you know, when when your wages, you know, you’re working a minimum wage job and
Emily Edwards (she/her) (17:25.024)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (17:35.776)
Exactly.
meredith (17:41.805)
you know, just sort of desperately try you know trying to like pull it back together again. So it showed I think the oppressive weight of like capitalism and maybe makes a subtle argument for support and forgiveness for folks as well. So yeah, very, very powerful when you really start kind of breaking down the way that those storylines develop.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (17:56.748)
Absolutely.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (18:01.537)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (18:05.26)
And I think one of the things, you know, you used a word a quite a number of times earlier when you were discussing just like the setting of it. You kept saying like, everybody knows her and everybody knows Mare and everybody knows. And I think it it really this show does an absolutely wonderful job of playing with the concept of like the f the terror of being known by people. The absolute, you know, everybody knows your dirty laundry in these tiny little towns, you know, the real life towns that these are
This show is based off of are anywhere between three and 13,000 people. That’s nothing. Those are teeny, tiny little towns. Everybody knows you. You marry people that you went to high school with, or you don’t marry them, and you have children with them, and then they all go to high school together. And it’s just this incredible lack of privacy that comes with this. And I think that’s such an interesting setting for mystery fiction. And
I’m not sure if necessarily this show was set out to be a mystery, more of like a crime sort of, but there is a such a strong whodunit factor too, is just Kaylee Spaney plays a little girl who’s murdered at the in the very first episode, and you just want to find out who did it and why. So you do have that whodunit foundation. And normally when you’re talking about small town whodunits, it’s always very cozy. it’s just an outsider coming through.
Or, you know, the the silly little secrets that the cozy characters have. But these are real true, honest to God, like real life secrets that the the writer has so much sympathy for. And he he does such an excellent job of making that poor little girl who dies in the first episode just having the most bleak, unhopeful existence while she’s still excited to go on a date.
And to the emotional balance that they managed to strike throughout this is wonderful because Mare is known and she’s terrified that everybody knows all of her embarrassing things and that everybody knows her ex-husband is re-engaged to another woman before you know she knows and she she’s terrified that all these people know her dirty little secrets, but she insists on being there for everyone. And you’re just like the de the emotional balance of that.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (20:24.85)
It’s terrifying. No wonder she’s exhausted all the time.
meredith (20:28.054)
Yes. Yeah, I mean, like they set up her character so well because she was a teenage. So Mare was a t the captain of her high school basketball team. And I think like they call her the Lady Hawk, I think. And they she like has like had this buzzer shot, I think that one, right? Like this is the
Emily Edwards (she/her) (20:42.518)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (20:47.294)
Yeah. It’s yes, she won the national championship or the state championship. Not national, state, twenty-five years ago. That’s the best thing that’s ever happened to this sad little town.
meredith (20:55.606)
Yes, and
I know. And like she carries that, I think this feeling of like heroism. you know, and like almost like chasing that identity of like needing to be the hero. And it is almost there’s some meditations on this as well. We see through her our understanding of her relationship with her father, who was a also a yeah, detective for or a policeman, I’m not sure which one, but he he, you know, she sort of tried to follow in his footsteps.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (21:08.244)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (21:26.13)
and he eventually succumbed to suicide. and then later on there is sort of another plot line of this other detective named Zable who talks a little bit about the heroic side of this job as well. And we sort of learn and see what we’re shown, I think, is that there really isn’t much celebration or joy in the heroic act of you know, helping people in this town and in how she
Emily Edwards (she/her) (21:36.971)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (21:50.891)
Yeah.
meredith (21:56.479)
acts as a police officer. So but it is very like oppressive and difficult. and then at the end we do see her like I think make like a very difficult choice as well, which was very interesting. And I had to really think about the ending a little bit. yeah the like there’s a there’s a twist ending there’s several twists at the end. and we basically it’s sort of you know
Emily Edwards (she/her) (22:00.109)
‘Cause you
Emily Edwards (she/her) (22:14.247)
Yeah. Yeah.
meredith (22:24.314)
we think that it’s Mare’s, you know, best friend’s husband who has killed the young woman who dies in the pilot episode. but then we actually learn that it was Mare figures out kind of at the very, very end, like at the, you know, eleventh hour, that it was actually the son, who is thirteen or twelve, maybe, like very, very young.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (22:44.042)
Yeah. I think he’s like thirteen, I think. So it’s just like just on the cusp of when people are really gonna start to throw the book at kids in America, especially like it’s not unheard of for thirteen year olds to be tried as adults here, which is absolutely repugnant and disgusting, but it’s something our justice system does.
meredith (23:01.644)
Yeah. And I was like curious about this choice. Like I thought about it a lot after. the and I don’t know a lot about young offenders in the United States and and how that plays out, but I think it was just like a very interesting character moment for her because Mare obviously lost her own son. And so she kind of is forced with you know, making this choice. Do I let my friend who is a mother like get away with it?
Emily Edwards (she/her) (23:19.695)
Mm.
meredith (23:28.576)
Or do I and like let the son get away with it? Or does he, you know, should he suffer the consequences of his actions? And she ends up choosing to go and arrest the son, which ultimately I like I th I do think was the right move. Like because we see the weight on the son’s conscience throughout the show. We see him sort of acting out and we see him he’s emotionally not holding it very well, which makes a lot of sense.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (23:28.64)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (23:40.961)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (23:55.768)
And then at the end we do see Mare ended up having to sort of try to reconcile with her friend and support her emotionally. And she does that. And I thought it was very, very like a very moving and perfect and messy ending. What did you think?
Emily Edwards (she/her) (24:01.537)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (24:06.848)
Yeah. No, I completely agree. I I I was curious for a little bit of the runtime of that episode of, you know, the first time I saw it of whether or not they were going to let this husband or this father sacrifice himself for his young son. And again, thirteen is such a is a pointed age for that to be happening because there have been a number of children, predominantly not white children, tried as adults.
at that age. 13 is a little bit more, when you’re a white boy, is a little bit more of, he has so much promise, you know, that that standard sort of phrasing that we the justice system uses so frequently here. So it is a very speci you know, but they’re not wealthy. They are not from a connected family. They are not in a connected town. So it could really go either way. And I was really actually very pleased
you know, I was relieved with the decision that she decided to you know, essentially charge the child and tell the truth of of the the conclusion of the investigation. Because I think there’s something to be said for 13-year-olds not understanding the gravity of the situation that they’ve created. I think that’s the main reason why most of us would.
you know, s say that a 13-year-old is still a child and should be considered a child in the eyes of the court of the law. And the death sentence that would have been given to that family if they had lost the income of a father who had to go to jail, how he would never work again because of how we treat people who come out of prison. Juvenile records are sealed by and large. And you know, you don’t have to disclose them as much on future job applications, things like that. I think it really took into account
all the different socioeconomic ramifications of, you know, certainly a father’s love trying to sacrifice himself to atone for his child’s own behavior is a beautiful sentiment. But whether or not that beautiful sentiment is warranted, it’s so complicated. Like you it
meredith (26:20.385)
Because he also did something really awful in that he was having a relationship with like his his his niece, I think, right? Yeah. And it was and he had fathered the child and put all this pressure on her and put her in these situations that I think, you know, led to I mean, there were lot of, you know, s you know, a lot of situational stuff that led to the her being murdered by the son of the father. But he’s definitely not let off the hook. but I also found in the ending there’s sort of a
Emily Edwards (she/her) (26:25.386)
His niece, yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (26:42.048)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
meredith (26:49.867)
argument made by a priest who has a he had a conviction for having I think he had sexually assaulted a young woman and he had been moved to this it’s a very dark show but he had moved to this and he had been moved to this town and was sort of facing like street justice for that from people when the news leaked and his first kind of the show ends on this his last kind of I forget what it’s called like a
Emily Edwards (she/her) (26:59.316)
Yes. Yeah, an underage.
Yeah.
meredith (27:19.607)
you know, he’s a sermon. He’s he’s yeah, he’s provided writing a sermon at church. And he almost makes an argument for forgiveness as like a survival strategy, as like we have to live with one another. Like this is our the truth of where we are and we have to find a way to live with one another. Otherwise we won’t make it. And that was like in a profoundly interesting take on forgiveness that I hadn’t heard before.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (27:21.014)
A sermon, yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (27:29.546)
Right.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (27:39.958)
Mm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (27:47.597)
Pretty like I grew up Catholic and so in a very similar sort of church environment. the trust me, the bishop involved in my diocese was not a nice man who moved lots of terrible people around New England. and so to have that again confronted just bald-facedly on this show is is very brave. and to just make no bones about it, but it is such a central tenet of Catholicism that like
Everything will be made better if you forgive if you practice forgiveness. And I think that the show really does an excellent job, again, as well, of just saying, like, no, actually, some you know, you’re allowed to hold a grudge in your heart because you know, the the calcification that you put over your own heart sometimes is.
Also, a way to protect yourself. And it shouldn’t get as thick as Mares is, but it does have to be there when you’re in when you’re sort of in dire circumstances. You know, even the first episode where her friend’s brother breaks into her house and steals her kids’ trophies to sell them for money to buy narcotics. And she’s just like, No, I’m not letting him back in my house. I’m not solving this problem for the first time. I can’t be the person who bails him out. And you’re just like, thank
God, you find, you know, we always get told in therapy, you know, you have to put up boundaries. And then to have at the end, you know, just people go like, no, you have to practice forgiveness. It’s like, no, this this whole entire show is actually a wonderful argument for essentially the women who on this basketball team up from 25 years ago who have now grown up to learn and say, like, you don’t have to be everybody’s hero. You only have to take care of yourself and your children. That that’s okay to say that, like,
You’re not gonna let your your or addicted brother sleep on the couch anymore. It’s you know, he’s his own man.
meredith (29:41.59)
Absolutely. It’s I yeah, you’re right. Like it’s very, I think this whole series, I think like on the surface you would say it’s about grief, but I think you’re right, it’s more so about how hard it is to forgive and how like easy it is to just say, you should forgive someone, but how difficult that process is. And what does it do to you if you can’t forgive someone, but also how do you survive?
Emily Edwards (she/her) (30:00.225)
Yeah.
meredith (30:07.031)
in the face of that kind of the sort of demands of the world that are in your reality that are sort of forcing these horrible things at your feet all the time. And I really love, yeah, you’re right, that they really dove into just like how terribly hard it is, especially when yeah, life is sort of churning around in the way that it did.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (30:15.659)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (30:32.564)
Yeah, I f I think it does such a wonderful job of a lot of crime fiction. you know, we we write stories where people are wronged in the worst possible manner. You know, you’re you someone you love gets murdered or someone you love does the murdering. And we’re people who write these books, you know, we we think a lot about justice and what is appropriate justice and what is appropriate punishment, what when does justice
Go over into vengeance, you know, like what is the healthy way of dealing with people who have hurt you? And I really just truly think that the show does such an excellent job of multi-generational dealing with hurt and anger. I think that the decision to make a huge part of the cast to be teenagers who are in the cusp of adulthood, but don’t yet have the skills.
Or the calcifications around their heart to be adults is you know, but they’re dealing with adult situations. You know, you’ve got little kids with babies, and they have n not only can fully functional adults not make a living, how can a how can a 17-year-old with a one-year-old make a living? How do you deal with that? This show does it without ever being saccharine or too angry. At no point does it is it ever assumed that these little kids are going to have a great life one day.
But it’s also just not ever resorting to and everything’s hopeless, so why even live? You know, it it balances really wonderful that frustration between like, I want the fantasy and I want nihilism. It’s it’s one, you know, often in media it’s prostrated as one or the other. And this really strikes an excellent tone right down the middle.
meredith (32:18.605)
Yeah, you’re right. I do think that there is kind of like sometimes in like really heavy noir stories that come from, you know, people who write maybe outside of their experience a little bit, a feeling that like people in low income places are like miserable and their lives are are miserable and they never get to be happy and like like all they feel is pain and and you know that turns them angry or whatever. But I do think you’re right. It does show like some great moments of humanity.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (32:34.016)
Yeah, yes, yes.
meredith (32:46.345)
kids being excited, you know, like there’s a queer love story kind of at the heart of it, which is really heartwarming and kind of funny at times. It’s almost like the comic relief in a few moments. there’s yeah, like a a young woman excited to go on a date. There’s and there is like Mare’s ex-husband is getting, you know, it’s very much in the background, but he’s and at first we’re sort of, you know, kind of on Mare’s side where where she’s dreading it and kind of acting badly about her ex-b husband remarrying, but then it kind of becomes like a nice sort of happy ending almost for them.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (32:53.237)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (33:16.352)
Yeah.
meredith (33:16.687)
as a whole fit kind of mixed, blended, odd family who can spend time together and have a drink and celebrate and be happy. So that part is really nice. I want to kind of go back to what you said about justice because when crime fiction really I grew to understand crime fiction in a like deeper way when I I read this quote that Attica Locke said, I think. And it’s like that crime sh crime fiction is about the fantasy of justice.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (33:24.672)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (33:42.612)
Yeah. I love that.
meredith (33:44.462)
And I actually don’t know if in Mare of East Town’s case that is like a hundred percent true because like we get, there is, I think, a sense of justice here in that, like we find out, you know, some young women who have been kidnapped get saved, and they go on to have nice lives and they’re supported by their communities. and the mysteries are solved. But I think what we’re left with is just the real human consequences of like how awful
the these crimes were and sort of what they do to a community. And so we almost don’t get that sense at the end, but I do think it does end on this sort of like bittersweet, almost like hopeful note, which is just like that, there are like seasons to life. And we as a community kind of like again going back to that sermon, which I thought was like a very kind of powerful moment for the show, you know, talking about forgiveness as a survival tactic and learning how to navigate
Emily Edwards (she/her) (34:27.798)
Yeah.
meredith (34:41.123)
that in such a treacherous and layered and difficult way, but also just that, you know, we’ll go through hard times and we’ll go through good times, you know, which I know is like kind of feels a little silly to say that, but there is sort of a moment of like of kind of like r relief and they show it in the filmmaking. Like it’s like very like bright and yellow in the, you know, in the shots. And you know, there’s like less sort of dark tones and they’re very thoughtful about how they portrayed it to show that, yeah, there’s a season.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (34:48.596)
Yeah, yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (34:58.785)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (35:06.656)
Yeah.
meredith (35:11.015)
and hopefully, you know, some pe our people get some peace for a little while.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (35:15.83)
You know, I think I was thinking that we’re all the way back to the first episode, you know, she arrests she arrests her friend’s brother who’s broken into her house. And you know, she asks her friend, you know, do you want to press charges? And she’s like, No. But I think Mare has a really interesting view on the role of policing in her own community, which is I don’t think she’s actively, you know, like, I’m the law and I need to control people and force them to act right.
I think she does come at it from a fairly sort of maternal, I hate using that word for every woman who has kids, but like she comes at it from a place of like, this is a time for you to pause and reflect. Do you want to continue down this path? And she knows oftentimes when she’s dealing with someone who is in the throes of addiction, they don’t have a choice or they haven’t yet hit the point where they’re going to have to make that choice. But I think she does come at it from almost like a, you know.
Not of course with the guy where she’s trying to hunt down who’s kidnapped two teenage girls, but with the more mundane policing of it of like, you know, I’m going to force you to stop where you are and notice the paths in front of you. And I think that’s a really healthy way of looking at community policing. You know, if you were integral to the community in this tiny little town, you know, i you’re not so much drawing, you’re not so much declaring what is or is not correct action.
But you are saying what you are doing is affecting all of us in this tiny little place. Do you want to continue affecting everyone you know and presumably love in the fact in the way that you are doing it? And I think that that’s shown fairly well in this, which is also like a really sort of revolutionary way of looking at policing and the role in community, especially in America, where we always have top-down cops. We’re gonna
bust the bad guy and and remove him so everybody stays pure. And that’s just not what’s happening here.
meredith (37:18.049)
Absolutely. And I think partially it must just be like a coping strategy for having to be like have this role of knowing everybody so intimately. But also as you were talking, it it it reminded me a lot about the wire. I don’t know if you’ve watched the wire, but there’s an arc of I forget now, but they’re the two sort of street there’s kind of street cops in you know, s in Baltimore. And when we first meet them, they’re chasing guys down and beating them up and acting cocky and
Emily Edwards (she/her) (37:33.825)
Yeah.
meredith (37:47.904)
they sort of have this arc where they learn how to police their community in a way of getting to know people, talking to them, being visible, getting, you know, like having personal relationships that transcend. because then it feels like they’re part of the community. They’re not, yeah, this outside force that’s coming in to like strike the hammer of justice down. they are working with their communities to make them safer. And that I agree does feel like the
Emily Edwards (she/her) (38:04.48)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (38:16.217)
path maybe you know potentially the path forward. Not being a a a genius about community policing at all or, you know, knowing you know much about that. But it does feel good, I guess, when you see cops that you know, take the time to get to know people and talk to them. And it doesn’t feel like they are just showing up guns blazing and they’re not afraid of their people that they’re protecting. So
Emily Edwards (she/her) (38:21.095)
Yeah, I only know so much.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (38:33.045)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (38:42.74)
Yeah. Yeah. I my friend Libby who was on the our first episode is a massive wire fan and she’s been trying to get me to watch it for ages, but I know it’s going to be really, really intense. And she’s been getting mad at me that I haven’t watched it yet, but sh but I will, damn it, I will. Because I I know it’s very in it’s an incredibly intense show and it’s so well written and it it really held up as a as a sort of gold standard for how you you deal with.
the the story of inner city crime. And I do think, you know, I’m glad that this is being set in a small town, but a small town with, you know, interstates, you know, a small town where there are strangers, a small town where there is industry, you know, everybody has a trade, everybody’s doing something in the high school is seemingly large. Because I do think a lot of crime fiction has a fetishization of small town living.
I’ve never lived in a place that I was particularly small, so I just don’t understand this sort of like real America is where, you know, whatever. And I don’t think this show falls into that trap really.
meredith (39:53.848)
Yeah, it definitely doesn’t make it seem cute. And I think part of yeah, and part of that too is just also I think in Pennsylvania you’re sort of close to cities. So yeah, there’s this feeling like if you, you know, have gas money, like you can get out and go shopping or go to the movies or something. So it’s it’s not really like we are yeah, it’s it’s not made to be like Gilmore Girl stars hall or something like that or whatnot. Which I love, which I love, but for different reasons. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (40:17.46)
Yeah, yes. Ugh Yeah.
And I do think another just absolute strength of this show, which we haven’t really touched upon yet, is the fact that it is cast of some of the greatest actors working today. And I don’t think the show would have been as successful as it is in all the nuanced ways that we’ve been discussing if it had been in the hands of frankly works actors. Because everybody in this show truly holds these people with just like absolute care and respect in a way that
Say a lot of shows don’t
meredith (40:56.443)
I totally agree. even just like I was like laughing a bit at the guy Pearce character. So he’s he’s like the writer in residence at a like the local college who goes out with Mare which I thought was so funny just because I’ve done that job and I like, this does it is sort of what you feel like you come to town and you’re sort of looking around and you’re like, like, you know, what what have I gotten myself into a little bit? and having him, yeah, and he like it’s kind of a bit part, like he’s only in maybe ten percent of the show. yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (41:02.697)
I know.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (41:06.571)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (41:22.922)
Yeah. He’s there to be Guy Pearce, but he does a really good job of it.
meredith (41:26.125)
I yeah, definitely. He’s very handsome. you kind of want you’re sort of rooting for her to go out with him just because he has that power and charisma. But I totally agree with you because once in a while when I was watching, I was like, like is this line like if I if I wrote this line that one of them is saying, if it wasn’t said by one of these incredible actors, would it read as like a little hacky? and even having this priest kind of at the end, I know I’ve mentioned this so many times, but do this sermon, like that in itself is like a bit like
Emily Edwards (she/her) (41:46.507)
Yeah.
meredith (41:53.498)
Well, kids, like here’s the moral of the story. But there just really is something I think to the power of the acting, the specificity of the location that gives it, I think, like an extra layer where we sort of forgive it for some of its sins occasionally. But there is also just this like very kind of and I don’t wanna be offensive but goofy accent, right? Like there is a Yeah, like I remember when it first came out.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (41:55.542)
Totally.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (42:15.852)
Poor accent. Yeah.
meredith (42:21.447)
it was, you know, it was like 2021. We were all sort of in and out of lockdowns and navigating, you know, vaccines and all of the stuff that came with the early COVID pandemic. And it was just sort of fun to turn the show on. And you know, they’re like saying like hoagie and like, you know, are you gonna go home? And it it is just like such a regionally specific worder. And I remember my partner at the time and I just thought all week would be like, Hey, can you give me a glass of water like just to goof off? And
Emily Edwards (she/her) (42:39.168)
The worder. The worder. Yeah.
meredith (42:50.573)
It was f nice to see the actors kind of commit, I think, to to that. ‘Cause it was yeah, it it made the show feel even more immersive and even more like you said, like kind of oppressive in how tight we were, I guess.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (42:53.504)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (43:04.672)
Yeah. Yeah. Like honestly, Kate Winslit’s work with that accent. Again, I don’t know the accent particularly well. I know the pe I know people from there, but they don’t have the accent. It is again another thing that’s very class delineated as well. You know, like when you do go to Boston and you talk to people who are from sort of maybe outside the city on the north, their accent isn’t as thick as it is if you’re from the city or the or the south side of the city. So it is a very class delineated accent as well.
What’s really weird, and I’m just gonna say this, is I don’t like to shop there very often because their politics are bad. But when you do go to the Home Depot, for some reason, when you check out at the self-checkout thing, the the woman’s voice that they recorded for the Home Depot self-checkout has the Delco accent, and I don’t understand.
Why they made that decision. But yes, it’s like, thank you for shopping at the Home Depot. And you’re like, why? Where did that come from? It’s very odd, but it’s the only place I’ve ever heard that accent, like out in the wild. And I don’t understand why they made that decision. That being said, just Kate Winslet and Julianne Nicholson in a scene together is is like, thank you for getting two of the greatest working actresses of their generation in a room together. And then you throw in Jean Smart and just it’s it’s some of the most
meredith (43:54.324)
my gosh.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (44:19.206)
I think obviously Mayer has to be carefully cast for something that is always on her shoulders, always in her head, always in her heart. It is a mayor focused show. But my God is every woman around her just cast absolutely perfectly.
meredith (44:38.089)
I I would totally agree. Like it was just top down, genius level casting. I think we expect nothing less from HBO. They just seem like they know how to pick And I don’t know how you do that. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to like fan cast your own novels. People always ask you and I’m like, I don’t know how you people do that. Like it’s so hard.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (44:46.038)
True.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (44:57.312)
Love it too, truthfully. Like I w I often I don’t necessarily cast from the very beginning of when I start to write something, but over time my brain does sort of latch on to I think people who might be able to do it. Or like you start or I start to like include mannerisms. But I think that’s genuinely.
One of the things that genuinely shocked me though is the fact that this was not based on a book and it was not adapted from anything because it’s so rich. And I know you’ve written for television, so I don’t necessarily want to be like, can you believe TV writers did this? But it’s like, but I I was honestly surprised that it didn’t have a 400-page novel of lore and relationships to pull from, because it is just that deep, and every character is delivering that level of pathos to every character that they’re playing.
meredith (45:31.341)
No.
meredith (45:48.792)
I totally agree. Like when you think about when I’ve written scripts and when I’ve worked on shows and everything, like the how you get to know a character when you’re writing a screenplay is hard. Like you kind of have to do a lot of writing that never matters almost like just to get that sense that this person has like a fixed identity because yeah, it’s like very, very the
Emily Edwards (she/her) (46:05.344)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (46:15.351)
I think the struggle of it a little bit. And I think why a lot of the like, you know, like, you know, mystery of the week detective shows, like sometimes they feel a bit more like I’m just a, you know, sort of nonspecific cop type or something, right? Or you fall into archetype a little bit. and the specificity of these characters was incredible. And the actor certainly brought a lot to it, but you’re right, it wasn’t the writing. And something that I really admire about Maris’ character is that she doesn’t really get warmer, you know. Like I think we sort of have that expectation with.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (46:27.243)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (46:41.576)
Yes.
meredith (46:44.419)
Woman characters is that they are going to become more likable or something, right? As over the course of the series. And I think it’s in this sense, it’s just that we grew to respect and understand her a lot more. something I loved about the pilot is you’re sort of set up to think that, you know, Mare is a mess and she’s not good at her job and she’s sort of running around and she’s, you know, she’s got all this very layered backstory and everybody’s mad at her and she’s a failure as a detective.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (46:48.095)
Yes.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (46:56.085)
Yeah.
meredith (47:14.045)
because one of her, you know, the women on her basketball team, her daughter has been missing for a year. And Mare is sort of facing now, having the investigation that I think she had to close because she couldn’t really get anywhere with it, reopened with a new detective coming to sort of supervise her. and so
And you see all this go down at the 25th anniversary celebration for their state championship basketball team where they’re like fighting before they run out to be heralded and celebrated. And there was just like so many interesting dynamics in that scene. Such a great scene to watch if you you know, just wanna, you know, did like geek out about the like layers of conflict that exist between all of these people. But what I loved is that we learn, we’re sort of like
Emily Edwards (she/her) (47:37.568)
Yes Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (47:56.959)
Yes.
meredith (48:01.951)
immediately after we’re like no we learn in the few episodes Mare is a really great detective like she finds a bullet fragment in a very using she manipulates the state cop and she finds you know she is desperate to find the evidence of where the bullet shot had been hit.
she finds incredibly small details and is able to just maybe with a slight amount of luck, but I think just like persistence and being really, really good at her job. and so we get this like reversal. Like, if you’re a writer nerd, a reversal is really, really interesting. So you think one thing and then in the next few episodes, that’s sort of turned upside down. And that all makes us, as the person watching it, be like, they really are screwed. Like this is an unsolvable crime. Because this person that I thought.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (48:29.184)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (48:46.132)
Yeah. Yeah.
meredith (48:50.471)
sucked at her job is actually really good at it. And it just means that, you know, they’re gonna need to have a like they end up having a break in the in the case later on because someone else is kidnapped. But yeah, it’s very, you know, compelling just on like a structural nerdy scene level for anybody watching it. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (48:58.465)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (49:07.466)
No, it really is. No, they do so much with the character because, you know, sh you want her at the beginning. Like your own deep, you know, sociological misogyny sets in where you’re just like, Well, she’s just an angry woman and she’s just like such a mess. Because there are a lot of books now, and I do have to admit that like really love messy women, but they never
Get, you know, there they I love your book because she’s messy for a very specific reason and to a very specific end. But there are a lot of books now where it’s just like, I’m just messy, you know, and it’s like, are you messy or are you 35 and 17 at the same time? Like, you know, is there gravity to the mess? And I do and I I love messy characters that have a a a weight to the chaos that they’re spewing around.
meredith (49:36.865)
I think yes. Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (50:01.949)
And I think Mare is very good at having just the the sh her life is in shambles. She has lived through some of the worst things that a human being, let alone a mother, can live through. And it it’s having such an incredible dark hole, sort of like you know, black matter effect on her family. Her daughter is, you know, at su you know, you find out what her daughter’s been dealing with for the last couple of years of having found her brother.
And she’s just like, she’s holding that against Mare. And Mare doesn’t know. Like, she really is not aware. She’s so in her own grief that she does not acknowledge her daughter’s grief. And she’s parentified her daughter thoroughly to take care of the grandson. Like, I know her mother is there, but her daughter is like, no, let me put him to bed. Let me take care of him. And it’s just like she’s turned her daughter into a teen mother. And that’s not fair to her at all. And I
I forgot where I was going with this. Truthfully I do. But it’s just it’s this really beautiful weight that they give to everything. and I really lost where I was heading with that, and I apologize.
meredith (51:13.195)
No, no, like there’s there’s just a ton of richness in all of the relationships that exist between them. and you see how her daughter, because like we learn, you know, from our parents and our grandparents, we learn sort of how to be. and she I think like her mother feels like she has to be this like very strong, capable. She’s very put together. you know, she’s like she’s like trendy and like okay, a queer. I like I’m not sure what her orientation is, but she dates women and
Emily Edwards (she/her) (51:16.395)
Yeah.
meredith (51:42.65)
She’s got kind of like, you know, she’s got like a cool haircut and like, but she’s very put together and you don’t you see her processing grief through art, but you also really just see her not until the end, you don’t really get the sense of the weight that she’s also carrying. and so yeah, we can see the richness, I think, in these characters through their relationships for sure.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (51:44.971)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (51:58.656)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (52:04.556)
And again, as a show that’s written by a man in his 40s, this I know he has so much empathy for teen girls that you never see on television. You know, her daughter, Mare’s daughter, has such a sense of self-worth. She breaks up with her crappy, awful girlfriend at a certain point and she starts dating another girl who brings out just joy and and happiness. And then
meredith (52:08.503)
I know I’m mad.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (52:31.072)
For the character that gets murdered in the first episode, she my my husband watched that episode with me and he was just like, Do you get the sense that the writer said that like maybe her dying was a relief and a for, you know, almost like a good thing that happened to her because everything that was being set up for her was misery. Her father is abusive, her mother is nowhere, she’s got the sick kid that she can’t take care of, the ex that she’s parading as the father of her of her child.
meredith (52:47.617)
gosh, ’cause of how bad her life is. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (52:59.838)
Is with this abusive, horrible person. He won’t help out in any conceivable way. And then the baby was conceived through incest. And you’re just like, Yeah, I think the writer really wanted to let us know that maybe death was a forgiveness for this poor girl, because life was not ever going to be kind to her.
meredith (53:17.025)
It was a very, very dark character arc for her. And what I really do admire about how the show was written was that we get, you know, it it adheres to sort of the crime fiction. We need a mystery right away, and that we learn that there’s a missing young woman that Mare hasn’t found, and that there, you know, it gives you that sense right away that there will be an investigation. but then we spend an entire episode with
Erin McMinneman, who’s the young woman who dies, and she she’s killed at the end of the first episode. And so we are deeply connected with her. She gets a ton of, you know, we there’s a ton of story for her on the screen. And so she doesn’t just feel like a dead woman that, a kid detective’s, you know, gonna solve the murder to make themselves feel good, which is I think an old trope of crime fiction.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (53:48.224)
Yes, thank you.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (54:09.067)
Right.
meredith (54:12.739)
that we really I hate, right? It’s just that like how many young women have to die for these mysteries to, you know, be solved or whatever, right? It just starts to feel really yucky. And that was I didn’t watch the there was a Netflix show called Adolescence that a lot of people really loved. But the major critique I think is that they really gave no space for the victim in that show. And it just feels like again, like a woman just has to die for a young man to like learn a lesson. And that is
Emily Edwards (she/her) (54:15.094)
Yeah, exactly.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (54:35.722)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (54:40.16)
Yeah.
meredith (54:40.943)
Totally messed up. And so I think if we want a model for like really great empathetic storytelling, because young women are, you know, oftentimes victims in these situations for sure, then this is a great one. I think if you’re, you know, watching this podcast and you’re like, Well, how do I do it? I think this was like kind of perfectly done in a way, right? Where you’re like, you get to know her as a a person with, you know, hopes and dreams and conflict and you know, she’s like a human being, which
Emily Edwards (she/her) (54:58.581)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (55:10.122)
Yeah. Because you are led to believe in the first episode that the worst thing that’s going to happen to her is that she actually gets kidnapped like the other girl. And it’s actually like, no, like something far worse and far more horrendous actually happens to her. And they do do you have a couple more minutes to chat? Do you mind if we go over a little bit? Okay, wonderful. I do think that the incredible t like narrative twist of bringing in a much younger male detective to help Mare, played by Evan Peters.
meredith (55:10.723)
You know, everyone who you know.
meredith (55:25.677)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (55:39.249)
Is just such a wonderful, realistic slap in the face for her for Mare to actually kind of refocus and and re-ener you know and re-energize her entire MO for this. Because again, in throughout the first couple episodes, she’s just like, We’re never gonna find this girl. She’s dead, she’s dead at the bottom of the river. We’re never gonna find her. Like, I wanna find her. I’m putting up what I’m putting up. Have you seen her posters? Like in the back of my mind, I’m sure, you know, maybe this this.
false Catholic hope that I’m gonna rescue this girl. But she’s really given up by the time that they bring in Evan Peters’ character. And then she’s like, I can’t let him do it. No, this this is my friend’s daughter. This is my connection. This is my town. And I’m going not necessarily be the hero, but I can’t let him sort of get this investigation because he does these aren’t his people. They’re not his tr the his the people his community.
meredith (56:33.037)
Yeah. Absolutely. And then like that again is like I think a trope like kind of a trope, right? It’s like, you’re bringing in the FBI or something, right? Or you’re bringing in someone from the outside. But I think you’re right by creating this like new character dynamic that we haven’t seen very often, which is like the older, more experienced, more personally invested cop with like a younger guy is really interesting. And I think they have those two like a
Emily Edwards (she/her) (56:39.104)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (57:00.367)
There’s a such an interesting connection between them. I love the episode where they go on a date and he’s trying to make her feel romantic. And you can tell that she is there. I don’t know if it’s totally because she is, you know, he’s her kind of connection to the case, but there is, I think, a strong, you know, sense that she really just wants to work and he’s kind of more romantic. And I
Emily Edwards (she/her) (57:07.338)
Yes.
meredith (57:29.165)
I think that that can be true in relationships between men and women. So it’s fun to see it play out. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (57:32.749)
Absolutely. And I think her heart breaks a little bit when she realizes he still lives with her his mother. And she, you know, all of a sudden she’s going, like, well, my son isn’t around, you know. And and that’s truly what like just completely dissects her away from that emotional, you know, that romantic connection that she might have felt a little bit of a spark for him, where she’s just like, no, like this is this is not the feelings that I need to be having towards someone right now.
meredith (57:39.588)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (58:00.769)
And then when he dies is murdered, I think that it’s such I think it actually gives us a twist on what you were saying of like the propulsion for the characters. so often a dead young girl lying naked at a river. Whereas I think the wonderful propulsion for her is now like essentially she’s lost two boys. And I don’t often, you know, often we have this conversation online now of like, ooh, creepy boy moms, creepy boy moms. And it’s like, yeah, there’s some.
moms out there that are really weird towards their sons. But I think also just like that we’re i of you expect we get a lot of narratives about women and their daughters, women and their daughters, but this is a truly heartfelt, you know, exploration of of losing a son because she still has her girl, but sh you know, and she’s got a little boy again that she has to raise and take care of. And that that that lost 20-something male
meredith (58:32.543)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (58:59.313)
Is now grown even more importance in how we understand culture.
meredith (59:04.215)
Absolutely. And, you know, like not to be sort of icky, but I do think, you know, part of why she’s drawn to him is probably because he’s around the same age as her son who passed away. Right. There is like a sense of you know, maybe I could save, you know, help him or save him too. And then in that, you know, moment, like her sort of like all is lost moment, her really like her bleakest point is after he dies because, you know, she couldn’t save him.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (59:12.385)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (59:19.244)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (59:29.581)
And I also think like she’s fighting, there’s a a whole plot line about how hard she’s fighting to have custody of her grandson. And I think a huge part of that just comes from her, you know, need to get it right. I think there’s a feeling that she’s like, if I just you know, fight for him and take care of him and you know whatnot, like then he, you know, I can get it right this time. which is like a, you know, a very wounded, multi-layered, probably kind of tangled up with her grief and her
Emily Edwards (she/her) (59:37.024)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (59:42.614)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (59:58.795)
Yeah.
meredith (59:59.448)
I think part of her, you know, character arc is like learning to kind of like let that go and accept that like her son had like, you know, inherited had inherited mental illness from her father, right? There was like kind of like some genetic things and you just can’t you can’t control that. And so kind of accepting that that she had no control over it was, I think, really foundational to her kind of like forgiving herself.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:00:12.876)
Mm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:00:16.661)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:00:24.554)
You know, and I think there’s also this is also really just well done in the text of the show, in that even now we’re seeing younger girls who like know their path. Because, you know, second wave feminism did do a pretty okay-ish job of raising us of being like, you can be anything you want to be, you know, focus, you know, keep your nose to the grindstone, work really hard. You will get far in life if you actually do this. And that is a lesson for for white.
lower middle class to middle middle class women of just being like, you can work your way out of this, you can work your way to a better life. And we’re seeing now that that’s by and large fairly true for a lot of white women of a certain age from a certain socioeconomic class. And her daughter is just the perfect embodiment of that. And I think that Mare is really struggling with something that we are only now really talking about four or five years later, which is that like
Why aren’t the boys still living up to any kind of potential? Like every every guy in this of a certain age in this show is kind of a wayward dirtbag. And you’re just kind of like, why is the girl escaping? Why is the, you know, this beautiful young woman doing so well? And why does she understand the gravity of it? Whereas the men are so lost at a certain point.
meredith (01:01:44.558)
Yeah, there is like a moment where Mare’s ex husband is she kind of accuses him of potentially being in a relationship with the woman who dies in the first the young woman who dies in the first episode, Erin McManiman. So she like and we sort of think like, this husband must be involved in this, and you know, because we’re kind of on Mare’s side at that point. And then at the you know, he’s exonerated pretty soon after, and at the end we sort of Yeah, sorry?
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:02:07.2)
Yeah.
Thank God. Thank God, you know.
meredith (01:02:14.177)
yeah, I know, right? You’re like, my gosh. And it is kind of a relief just to be like, like he can be a teacher and a father, and he’s getting married and he’s picking up a picking out a goofy tuxedo, and there is like a sense of like, okay, so it did kind of like work out for like one man in this the odds, yeah, the odds are not great. and you know, he’s certainly not, I think, portrayed as like a perfect person, but it did show that.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:02:30.824)
One guy, yeah, one guy is okay.
meredith (01:02:43.039)
Yeah, there was like I felt like that was like a very specific choice that the writer made to kind of show that, I think at the end, and give us a sense. But you’re right, there is like a real sense of just like how you know difficult it is for folks to, you know, claw their way out of poverty and the sort of oppressive power of capitalism and how determined and
Focused, you have to be in the sort of support that you need around you in order to do it. And yeah, I like to think Siobhan, the Mare’s daughter, went on to be like a great filmmaker because you want there to be a happy ending, right? And you want to picture Mare at like the Oscars or something. yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:03:15.648)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:03:21.43)
God, I hope so. Yeah, for one of them. Yeah, I’ve I found it really interesting that they let Guy Pearce’s character leave. You know what I mean? Like I understand that those sort of visiting professor sort of situations, they are temporary. You do move on to another one, hopefully, if you get another job. But I thought it was really interesting that.
You know, it it could maybe considered a sort of self-insert for the gentleman who wrote this, who also was raised in a a like a lower in class like class town in eastern Pennsylvania. And it could perhaps be construed that way, that like only the arts will let you leave. But I do think that there is a certain aspect of like the freedom of thought, you know, of just like if you can
imagine and this is gonna sound so hokey but like if you can imagine yourself living a better life you might actually be able to live I don’t want to say better. If you can imagine yourself living a different life, you might actually be able to live a different life. and there is that aspect to it. But like then there’s also just the aspect of like he’s Guy Pearce. Of course he’s gonna go somewhere else. Like look at him.
meredith (01:04:28.247)
Yeah.
meredith (01:04:31.693)
Yeah, I know. I I can relate because I I works this like he’s he’s don’t going to do like a sessional contract at a university or like an adjunct, I think is what they call it in the States. So I I can relate to this a little bit. I really what I liked about the ending is Siobhan has a moment where like I think Mare says something like, I hate this town, and Siobhan’s like, No, you love it. And like then the sun comes out in the room and there’s something too
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:04:56.022)
Yeah.
meredith (01:04:56.885)
we get this like you know, this feeling of like hope and optimism. Hope, I just said, and optimism, about the future and about how how Mare actually, you know, maybe does, you know, she says the entire time that like this place is a shithole and I hate it and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And like no one can get out of here and it’s the worst. But maybe there is some love for home in it. And I did kind of like, I don’t know, maybe I just like I’m not a romantic. I don’t know. I kinda like that he left only because
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:05:01.588)
No hope.
meredith (01:05:26.157)
I felt like the ending was very much just about how like life has like kind of like a churn to it. Like there’s sort of an endless coming and going with people and relationships and friends and that, you know, sometimes you’ll go through really dark and difficult periods and other times you’re, you know, the sun the sunlight will come out and you’ll you’ll get kind of like a almost like a reprieve from it.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:05:49.174)
Yeah.
meredith (01:05:49.656)
And that maybe a sense of the too, like we kind of just need to surrender to a higher power and we don’t have control over of it. I don’t know. I don’t wanna sound too like I’m not religious or anything, but yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:05:55.873)
Yeah.
N no, I know. but you know, I think a lot of narrative often believes, like, especially in crime fiction, I think we have a tendency to sort of say, like, once this is all over, everything will get better. We there crime fiction really does have a finality to it. You know, even when we talk about romance and, you know, the from the romance novel expectation that there’s a happily ever after and that the story goes on and that they’re always gonna be happy.
Whereas I think crime fiction often has the belief that this has a final end point to it. And we find out who the guilty person is, they go to jail or they get their, you know, their punishment for whatever it may be. And I think that this show is so well done in that like life doesn’t end. And, you know, I think Mare has thought that her life had no momentum for however since her son passed away, of just she’s been left in this sort of
hamster wheel purgatory of chasing after a missing girl who she doesn’t think is ever going to be found. Her husband, you know, her ex-husband lives in the house behind her. So they’re still in each other’s lives. You know, her her kid isn’t getting older. like what this this absolute firm belief in the myth that her story isn’t going to change. And I do think it’s wonderful that she’s given this guy who she cares for and who makes her happy, but he’s got to go.
And you know, and it’s not sad because she’s an adult and she’s experienced far worse loss in her life. And she it dawns on her that it’s cyclical and that life moves and that it isn’t over until it’s over. And and it there’s a really like you’re saying, like it it could be construed as like naively uplifting for for a very bleak show.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:07:54.151)
Or I think it’s in crime fiction that’s what gives us the opportunity for her to tackle yet another project. And unfortunately, this is not gonna get another season. This is a finite thing, but you know, it did give you hope that there could be another season of Mare of East Town to see Mare grow and Mare change and her family, you know, live on.
meredith (01:08:15.383)
Yeah, I know. And I’m I’m kind of glad I think there wasn’t another season. I know like I love the show and I remember when it ended, I was like, I need another one. I need it now. But I’m sort of glad that they didn’t go back to it just because I think the the character it was very much like I think the story was the story of her character was told. And so I think they’d have to find like a new way in somehow. but I know the writer did another show called Task, I think. I haven’t watched it yet, but I I don’t know if it was called Task, but Mark Ruffalo is the guy.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:08:36.491)
Yeah.
meredith (01:08:44.897)
is the is the lead, so yeah. I think my gosh, I’m just saying this now, but I’m like Okay
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:08:46.406)
wonderful. Mark Ruffalo is delightful. Yes, it is called Task. Yeah. No, it is. He it’s another Mark Ruffalo is an FBI agent. So looks a little bit to be a bit more run and gunning and a little bit more action-oriented. But you know, again, cast is really fantastic. Mark Ruffalo, Tom Pelfrey, and a bunch of other people who are Martha Plimptons in a couple episodes. So a coup bunch of really, really phenomenal casting and
HBO man, like they’re losing a little bit of shine to Apple TV right now, but fingers crossed HBO can pull it out because
meredith (01:09:16.429)
I know. yeah.
I know, I hope so, yeah. There was what was also wild to me when I was watching this because I didn’t make the connection, but the woman who plays Mare’s best friend, who is the mother of the so she plays, I don’t know if you watched hacks, she’s like dance mom, isn’t she?
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:09:34.806)
The little boy, Julianne Nicholson, yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:09:39.742)
I have it. yes, she is. She’s one of my f she’s one of my favorite actresses. I don’t know why, but like whenever she’s on screen, I’m like, Julianne Nicholson, you just absolute goddess. And she really doesn’t work as much as you’d expect for someone who’s just that supremely talented.
meredith (01:09:56.642)
was very, very good. And I was like, now I need to cause I’ve seen cause you know, Hacks is a comedy and it’s pretty straight comedy. Like and she plays like a very outrageous Canadian character. She’s like a TikTok influencer named Dance Mom, I think, who like dances on very, very
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:10:01.773)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:10:06.856)
Awesome.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:10:12.46)
Amazing. I as soon as Jean Smart showed up again, I went, Right. It was this show that gave us Jean Smart, like the Jean Smart Renaissance that we’ve been able to live through and gloriously lived through for the last couple of years. So
meredith (01:10:21.389)
Yeah. Yeah, because I think what sh no, never mind. I I was confusing her in my mind with Allison Janny. I feel like they maybe occupy a similar they probably have competed for parts before. But anyway, yeah, just love Jean Smart also. So she was so funny. There was a moment where she I I just did it again. I said moment. she pulls out a bag of frozen vegetables from the freezer and then she opens it and inside is a Haagen-Dazs
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:10:31.37)
Yeah, very similar casting. Probably. Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:10:49.288)
Yes.
meredith (01:10:49.517)
And you’re like, my God, this is such a funny character thing because she obviously is hiding it from everyone else because she doesn’t want them to eat her ice cream. It’s so good. And I just love moments like that where you’re like, this is like a real person. They really thought about yeah, who
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:11:01.994)
Yeah. That’s someone who’s been a mom for a really long time and you’re just like, Yeah, someone pulled that from their own mother and when their mother saw that on television, they went, How could you do that to me?
meredith (01:11:13.327)
Simple pleasures, I guess.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:11:16.268)
Exactly. Thank you so much for talking about this show with me because I I don’t think anybody else would have been brave enough to choose it because it is just so it is it’s it’s such a close and gothic television show that I think that, you know, it it’s it’s a real masterclass in how to write television and how to translate crime fiction towards the towards serialized television. thank you so much for choosing it.
meredith (01:11:43.32)
Yeah, thanks for having me. This was so fun. And yeah, I know I think I didn’t remember how dark it was before I picked it. but no, it was just like so I love character-driven storytelling. And so I felt like we could really dive into how that can, you know, how you can still play within the kind of confines of the crime fiction genre with still kind of giving very meaty, interesting and deeply sad character development.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:12:08.587)
Yeah.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:12:12.182)
Huh. Tropes are just structure. That’s all they are. It’s just, you know, it’s it’s the jungle gym on which you play and that’s r this show does it phenomenally well. How can everybody keep in touch with you, your work, the books that you have out?
meredith (01:12:13.059)
Yeah.
meredith (01:12:25.825)
Absolutely. Yeah. So my most recent book was She’s the Lamb. and it is I think we’re actually currently sold out in the States, but it’s getting it’s going to its third reprint, which is exciting. and it should be stocked up. But yeah, order from your indies, order from, you know, I’m in in the States, I think it’s bookshop.org where you can I know it’s in stock there. and my first novel is called Other People’s Secrets.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:12:44.64)
Mm-hmm.
meredith (01:12:52.199)
might be starting to get tough to get a hold of that one. But so if you would want to check it out, it is a it is a character driven mystery about some the sort of wayward employees at a summertime resort. and it has its own sort of kind of you know darkly funny, campy energy to it as well. I mostly hang out on Instagram, so you can find me at Meredith Hambrock Books, and then I have
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:13:05.836)
That’s awesome.
meredith (01:13:18.499)
We have a you know, we talked about podcast and that’s the Novel Writers Podcast. available where you get your podcasts, I hope. And yeah, we have an Instagram account as well. And yeah, would love you to check us out. And yeah, thanks for having me. This is super interesting. I I wanna say fun, but I was like, I don’t know, I’m sad. Yeah, but always fun to talk to a great writer about you know.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:13:39.934)
Yeah, I know. I know what you mean.
Emily Edwards (she/her) (01:13:50.749)
Thank you.
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